The rise and fall of C&C... and now this?

[Enduar]

"Then they (Westwood) should have been allowed to die for their own mistakes. Not resurrected by some corporate Frankenstein so they could create the monster they did now and drain what little money they could from the series while they sucked the life from the fanbase.

The experiments with new RTS design could have been utilized by anything they could have created personally (original content), but instead they manipulated a fanbase they knew would buy any crap they put on the shelves because of it's early successes in Westwoods hands. That was THEIR (EA's) safety net. It doesn't respect the fan base, and it doesn't respect those who created the series. They ruined a legacy just so they could get some dollars and cents from people they clearly didn't give a damn about."

If Westwood were to die by their own experiments with new genres then they should have simply died way back during the EA take over. Better to have died by their own mistakes than to have another swoop in and dissect and slowly defecate all over the rotting remains.

Everything EA has had their fingers in regarding Command and Conquer has had their stench associated with it. It is clear that the real stylings of Westwood have been lost to EA even from the beginning, starting with the cartoony atrocity that was RA2 and continuing onward until we were left with the slap in the face C&C4 turned out to be.

The recent announcement that C&C was not dead yet only proved to disappoint me earlier. The fact is truly hoped EA would finally let the series die, even after it's legacy had been shredded beyond recognition. A mockery of all that looked C&C, be it gameplay, plot, or even the units themselves.

I had hoped with the death of the series, some creative individuals clinging to the past via mods of the old games could continue the C&C legacy with the styles of Westwood in mind. That they would get more of the recognition they deserved without the looming shadow of EA hanging over their heads.

So what. The mistakes of EA have been overwritten with the creation of a new studio? They think the problem was with the old team I suppose. They think that their mistakes will be magically forgotten?

We'll see.

Ranting aside, I'll quote what thousands of fans have already said. Bring the old C&C back.

Now you EA employees seem to have very thick skulls so I will explain in very simply child's terms what that means.

The following suggestions assume the new release will still remain in the Tiberium Universe, and not some terrible continuation of another split timeline from the RA universe or worse, Generals.
______________________________________________
-Base building.

-Realistic Depictions of Units and Structures.

-Emphasis on base design as a core gameplay mechanic, including base powergrid, defensive constructs including walls and stationary weapons.

-Environmental Dangers such as life forms and Tiberium itself (Veinholes, Tiberium Sludge, Tiberium Algae, Ion Storms, Roaming Lifeforms, Explosive Blue Tiberium)

-Horror Sci-Fi Themes with dark and twisted motifs throughout the plot (if you can even manage a plot, considering the last one was borderline soap opera)

-Realistic, possibly randomly generated maps (Never again return to the arcade-style predictable maps)

-Diverse warfare including ground, air, possible subterranean units, and Navy if able to be managed. (The issue with Navy was usually Scale, something that is more easily managed these days where larger maps do not necessarily mean poorer performance)

-Resources and Tech Trees being the basis of strategic advancement in gameplay, both in single player and competitive multiplayer.

Using those, and doing nothing new but simply creating a modern RTS engine with modern graphics and a user-friendly interface/controls, and this C&C game would be successful to both the old and new fanbase.

Please do not mistake this post as faith there is still hope for the "future" of C&C. I will warn you that trying to follow EA's footsteps and produce even further outside the box in order to try to get out from beneath this crumbling series will only ruin it further. If there is any hope for the series it lies in reconstructing the core mechanics of the original gameplay and modernizing them.

If anyone is upset with the manner in which I have presented this thread and my suggestions you don't need to worry about it, I will not be browsing these forums save this post alone. I would be happy to debate with anyone who sees things differently, though you should know I have little hope in this next game, or anything else EA decides to produce under the C&C name, as they simply don't understand how to preserve even the simplest aspects of what made the game a success to begin with.

[Heron]

Well, just one thing.

It's still EA for sure, but we as fans and consumers can vote with our dollars, and if VG delivers, then its good. If VG fails, well, we will see.

[Enduar]

EA is a marketing monstrosity. Our dollars alone don't do enough when if you throw enough advertisements on the playing field any idiot with a spare 60 dollars will cash in just because the TV(or internet) told them to. In the end they'll find some way to break even at the expense of another series or something else, which is not something I particularly enjoy to think about.

[Petuck]

I agree almost whole-heartedly, Enduar. I enjoyed the original C&C, The first Red Alert and Tiberian Sun. Those games were pretty awesome. However, I do disagree with you on C&C 3 Tiberium Wars. I thought that was close to what the original C&C was, but RA2 and RA3, Generals I thought were not very good. C&C4 I returned after 1 week of playing. I am very wary of purchasing this... resurrection(?) of C&C with VG.

But, I will want to see comprehensive videos and screenshots of actual gameplay and a thorough explanation of the game. We will have to wait and see.

[stormgear]

And a beta test.

[Enduar]

Waiting until beta testing is like trying to cure a patient after the disease has killed them I'd say.

[Gobias]

Waiting until beta testing is like trying to cure a patient after the disease has killed them I'd say.
That's absolutely true. People overestimate how much can be done in the beta. If we want anything to be included in the next C&C, now is the time to say it, because by time it's announced, it's pretty much too late.

[Enduar]

Personally I am only here to suggest what NEEDS to be done to preserve the series using it's existing basis. As far as new content goes I am wary to mention it, firstly because these are public boards and I know EA wouldn't care to stoop as low as to use the same fanbase they are milking for money to steal original content from as well, even for other projects.

Major content of the game is decided before Alpha, even. If YOU want C&C to be what the fan base wants it to be, now is the time to raise your fist and make the demand, assuming they will even listen. By the time it hits the production phases, feature creep will be on the tight budget of the EA suits and it'll be all but over for anyone who isn't happy with the product. By that time it's all about deadlines and projected profit.

[Moongrave]

They need to get back to the roots and grow from there

[Zeritical]

Enduar, please I beg you to come write your beautifully written articles on Gank Noobs! You are exactly the kind of person I want to be covering the release of the next C&C game! PLEASE! I BEG YOU!

Go! Register! I will make you a publisher so you can write news as it's released and give your marvelous opinions! I WILL WASH YOUR CAR WITH MY TONGUE! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, SIR!

http://ganknoobs.com/wp-login.php?action=register

[Enduar]

Wow. Didn't expect that sort of response here, Zeritical. Well, if you don't mind me being horrendously jaded and pessimistic about the future of C&C I'll think about it. Believe me it's taking a lot to keep my form here. Game Design is the purest art for to me, going beyond just showing something what it in the mind of another, but actually allowing you to participate in it. C&C appealed to me greatly and as such having EA disgrace it in every way imaginable was a pretty low blow. I'll go ahead and register/take a look. Also, check your inbox here, I'll be sending you a PM with some contact information.

[Gobias]

Wow. Didn't expect that sort of response here, Zeritical. Well, if you don't mind me being horrendously jaded and pessimistic about the future of C&C I'll think about it. Believe me it's taking a lot to keep my form here. Game Design is the purest art for to me, going beyond just showing something what it in the mind of another, but actually allowing you to participate in it. C&C appealed to me greatly and as such having EA disgrace it in every way imaginable was a pretty low blow. I'll go ahead and register/take a look. Also, check your inbox here, I'll be sending you a PM with some contact information.

If you're going to do it, you may as well make him keep his word about washing your car with his tongue too.

[Enduar]

If you're going to do it, you may as well make him keep his word about washing your car with his tongue too.

With winter just about over, it needs the wash too. :D

[Heron]

Enduar, I realise you feel that EA has no proven track record and all, but for me, I will give VG the benefit of the doubt. New slate and all, but I will be watching, closely.

[Enduar]

Enduar, I realise you feel that EA has no proven track record and all, but for me, I will give VG the benefit of the doubt. New slate and all, but I will be watching, closely.

No doubt, they ARE a new group. But it is still EA masterminding the whole project and I believe it was their business-minded drive that has dissolved this series from the beginning. This is not a machine they are building to provide a service, but an art form that must be cohesive in all aspects to create a final product. The only reason I even posted here was because I am giving them this small amount of respect- To at least hear some amount of my opinion however little it likely matters to them.

[Heron]

No doubt, they ARE a new group. But it is still EA masterminding the whole project and I believe it was their business-minded drive that has dissolved this series from the beginning. This is not a machine they are building to provide a service, but an art form that must be cohesive in all aspects to create a final product. The only reason I even posted here was because I am giving them this small amount of respect- To at least hear some amount of my opinion however little it likely matters to them.

Of course, all I'm saying is that EA will be fools if it allows mistakes to be made on a continued basis. After all, they do release some good games from some studios, and if they are insisting on repeating the same mistakes they made with the past C&C releases, it will not be pretty for them, as they virtually will give away the RTS market to Blizzard.

Now I do hope they did lay off the middle management fools who made C&C4.

[Commander_McNash]

Of course, all I'm saying is that EA will be fools if it allows mistakes to be made on a continued basis. After all, they do release some good games from some studios, and if they are insisting on repeating the same mistakes they made with the past C&C releases, it will not be pretty for them, as they virtually will give away the RTS market to Blizzard.

Now I do hope they did lay off the middle management fools who made C&C4.

I suspect they are going to do something in the line of Generals or C&C3, after all those were the games they had more success with, and no matter how much some people would whine about the "blasphemy of not doing their every wish" they need money to keep stuff running, bcs, you know, EA is a company, and companies are made to generate cash so their people can earn a living,so, I think to make VG do something you must convince them more people will buy the game for that particular implemented idea.

[Heron]

I suspect they are going to do something in the line of Generals or C&C3, after all those were the games they had more success with, and no matter how much some people would whine about the "blasphemy of not doing their every wish" they need money to keep stuff running, bcs, you know, EA is a company, and companies are made to generate cash so their people can earn a living,so, I think to make VG do something you must convince them more people will buy the game for that particular implemented idea.

And that will be what I will love. C&C3 more, Generals less, but you get the picture. EA can't be losing money over this huge trademark, and they got a lot to make up for. Unless they are total dumbwits with the sense of 'Its a C&C, they will buy it', they will just keep losing those RTS dudes to other games, or get them to stop all together.

I am not getting my hopes up for the new game to be fantastic and tick all the boxes I love about RTS, but let it live up to the name C&C.

[Commander_McNash]

And that will be what I will love. C&C3 more, Generals less, but you get the picture. EA can't be losing money over this huge trademark, and they got a lot to make up for. Unless they are total dumbwits with the sense of 'Its a C&C, they will buy it', they will just keep losing those RTS dudes to other games, or get them to stop all together.

I am not getting my hopes up for the new game to be fantastic and tick all the boxes I love about RTS, but let it live up to the name C&C.

That for sure, well, also C&C will always sell at least decently, probably never as much as a Call of Duty, but it has enough cash to buy itself a future.

[Heron]

The fact that C&C4 sale figures went unheard of just proved to me that even that might not be true, the future buying. And I will be the first to admit that I did not buy that title, the first title in the series, save for the spinoff titles Renegade and Sole Survivor, that I didn't buy.

[Commander_McNash]

The fact that C&C4 sale figures went unheard of just proved to me that even that might not be true, the future buying. And I will be the first to admit that I did not buy that title, the first title in the series, save for the spinoff titles Renegade and Sole Survivor, that I didn't buy.

Despict the amount of criticism C&C4 has it seems it didnt do that bad,but I think EA definitly noticed that was going to be their last shot with the old make-a-game-every-year format, it was no longer viable, they were hurting their employees, the brand and their investment.

[129375860]

CNC4 wasn't terrible. It just needed to stay as Arena.

[methuselah]

Now you EA employees seem to have very thick skulls so I will explain in very simply child's terms what that means.

If anyone is upset with the manner in which I have presented this thread and my suggestions you don't need to worry about it

I'm not upset but the way you present your thoughts, and yourself, make it very difficult for anyone to take you seriously. You insult the very people you hope to influence and then expect them to pay any attention to you? Really?

Look I'm no EA apologist I have issues with some of the things they've done to my distraction in life (Commanding & Conquering) but the reality is that some really, really bright people have shed a ton of blood, sweat and tears to do the best they could under some difficult circumstances to give us these games. Is it their fault that the culture at EA has not really understood what it takes to do this right? Is it their fault that the development cycles have not been long enough? Is it their fault that hitting the targeted release date was more important than releasing a finished product?

No it's not.

So be careful about attacking people when you don't really know what's up lest you make the rest of his think your the one with the thick skull.

[Commander_McNash]

I'm not upset but the way you present your thoughts, and yourself, make it very difficult for anyone to take you seriously. You insult the very people you hope to influence and then expect them to pay any attention to you? Really?

Look I'm no EA apologist I have issues with some of the things they've done to my distraction in life (Commanding & Conquering) but the reality is that some really, really bright people have shed a ton of blood, sweat and tears to do the best they could under some difficult circumstances to give us these games. Is it their fault that the culture at EA has not really understood what it takes to do this right? Is it their fault that the development cycles have not been long enough? Is it their fault that hitting the targeted release date was more important than releasing a finished product?

No it's not.

So be careful about attacking people when you don't really know what's up lest you make the rest of his think your the one with the thick skull.

Besides, he is giving us fans a bad reputation of being impolite and rude people.

[Heron]

Despict the amount of criticism C&C4 has it seems it didnt do that bad,but I think EA definitly noticed that was going to be their last shot with the old make-a-game-every-year format, it was no longer viable, they were hurting their employees, the brand and their investment.

I don't know, it definitely hurt enough for them to kneejerk and kill off the dev team. That's reason enough for me to think that EA is not that stupid.

And again, to the TS enduar, we must give VG the chance. I hate EA for what they did to C&C but they are able to create good games IF they give them the support. I thought Dragon Age was a good game, alongside Call of Duty and Battlefield, so I pray VG will turn the corner and give C&C a much-needed boost.

[Commander_McNash]

I don't know, it definitely hurt enough for them to kneejerk and kill off the dev team. That's reason enough for me to think that EA is not that stupid.

And again, to the TS enduar, we must give VG the chance. I hate EA for what they did to C&C but they are able to create good games IF they give them the support. I thought Dragon Age was a good game, alongside Call of Duty and Battlefield, so I pray VG will turn the corner and give C&C a much-needed boost.

Dont forget Dead Space 2, which has one of the most solid and awesome singleplayer campaigns of our times, most people buy the game just bcs of that. And they were not disappointed.

[Heron]

And of course, the Sims. The list goes on, and we can only hope that VG can do what others have done in other departments.

[129375860]

With much hope VG will be successful.

[Gobias]

Besides, he is giving us fans a bad reputation of being impolite and rude people.

I am sure EA is shocked that the internet is not the epitome of courtesy and perfect etiquette because no one at EA has ever used it before.

[Heron]

I am sure EA is shocked that the internet is not the epitome of courtesy and perfect etiquette because no one at EA has ever used it before.

Well, EA has received enough hate for sure, but we probably are some of the worst ones since they did destroy a well-loved franchise and is now trying to perform CPR on it.

[methuselah]

I am sure EA is shocked that the internet is not the epitome of courtesy and perfect etiquette because no one at EA has ever used it before.

Oh come on.....so somehow that makes it okay to be rude? Really?

No it does not. Anonymity does give people cojones they don't ordinarily possess but it does not mean we all have to be lemmings and follow the idiocy.

[Commander_McNash]

I am sure EA is shocked that the internet is not the epitome of courtesy and perfect etiquette because no one at EA has ever used it before.

High rates of faults dont justify them. Under the logic you are supporting we may still have kept support on slavery, non-defensive wars and ideological intolerance.

[stephanovich]

Dont forget Dead Space 2, which has one of the most solid and awesome singleplayer campaigns of our times, most people buy the game just bcs of that. And they were not disappointed.

Or just any Bioware game LoL.

[Commander_McNash]

Or just any Bioware game LoL.

I still have to tray those, but may take some time since I got Retribution on schedule.

[Heron]

If Bioware can do it...so can VG.

[Commander_McNash]

If Bioware can do it...so can VG.

By the way... EA already have another VG, Visceral Games, Oh no, what I am going to do? D:

[129375860]

Context ftw.

[Heron]

By the way... EA already have another VG, Visceral Games, Oh no, what I am going to do? D:

At least here, we know VG stands for Victory Games. So ya.

[Commander_McNash]

Right that, right that, but I guess I will have to call both for their full names in my mind.

[129375860]

I don't have anything from Visceral Games so luckily I don't have that problem. XD

[Nyerguds]

Call 'em VicG ;)

[Gobias]

Oh come on.....so somehow that makes it okay to be rude? Really?

No it does not. Anonymity does give people cojones they don't ordinarily possess but it does not mean we all have to be lemmings and follow the idiocy.
He was hardly that rude (I've seen so much worse. Frankly, it's nice to see someone who can string together a proper sentence for once.). His criticisms were pointed and his target was deserving. EA should (and does) have a thick skin.


High rates of faults dont justify them. Under the logic you are supporting we may still have kept support on slavery, non-defensive wars and ideological intolerance.
What? I'm defending slavery now? I mean, it is a cheap source of dependable labor so I am not exactly against it, but I don't see how you got that out of my post.

[Enduar]

To explain myself a little bit, I missed out on all the rage and impudence with people harassing EA all through the development stages of C&C3 and 4, so this is all unbelievably fresh disdain for EA in regards to me expressing it directly to their own forums. In addition it's been fairly difficult to be polite enough not to use my "usual names" for EA which would typically earn me a swift ban, I'd imagine.

From my perspective EA didn't ruin my form of entertainment, they shamed and ruined every aspect (Gameplay, atmosphere, plot) of an artform I respected and loved. This hits me very close to home because I hope to aspire to design games myself and currently go to college for that exact thing.

I think I've been fairly lenient on what I actually want to say about the guys at EA. Don't get me wrong, I doubt the Dev Team is guilty of much more than being too proud or too stupid to listen to the few fans who actually do know what made this series successful. I would imagine the real problem comes from the people holding the money. The ones setting the dates. The ones deciding the risks to be taken. The ones who probably have more experience figuring out how to manipulate potential buyers with instant-gratification games rather than the "real deal".

I will not accept anything less than perfect if they hope to win any amount of my trust back, and even then it will still take a very long time for me to give an ounce of respect for the company that bought Westwood and bled it dry for every bit of money they could.

Edit: And for whoever said I was only being rude because of internet anonymity... You'll find I'm the only Enduar on the net, for the most part, and it's the same name I put a lot of my art and music under. I find exposure is easier when you don't hide under a bunch of pseudonyms.

[Nyerguds]

To put the whole "EA ruined WW" thing in perspective though, you have to realize that Westwood sold itself, and that it was mostly Westwood's giant failure on the Earth & Beyond MMORPG that led to the company's final closure.

You should watch the Machinima series on the history of Command & Conquer; it really explains in detail how and why Westwood went down. Sure, EA was involved, but you can't squarely put the blame on them.
http://www.youtube.com/show/allyourhistory?s=3

[Enduar]

To put the whole "EA ruined WW" thing in perspective though, you have to realize that Westwood sold itself, and that it was mostly Westwood's giant failure on the Earth & Beyond MMORPG that led to the company's final closure.

You should watch the Machinima series on the history of Command & Conquer; it really explains in detail how and why Westwood went down. Sure, EA was involved, but you can't squarely put the blame on them.
http://www.youtube.com/show/allyourhistory?s=3

If you look to my first post you'll see I quoted directly from one of my own comments on the fourth video of that series. If westwood were to kill themselves they should have been allowed to die for their own mistakes. Not kept alive so another company with no intention of keeping the series alive in the ways that made it great can simply use it to profit on the name they had no hand in creating.

[Nyerguds]

If you look to my first post you'll see I quoted directly from one of my own comments on the fourth video of that series.
Umm... how on earth am I supposed to know that? I'm not psychic, you didn't specify, and I certainly didn't memorize all comments to all of those videos.

[Gobias]

Umm... how on earth am I supposed to know that? I'm not psychic, you didn't specify, and I certainly didn't memorize all comments to all of those videos.
For shame! I commit to memory every single YouTube comment I read. As a result, my brain is 80% composed of misspelled racial epithets, while the other 20% is various variations of "Justin Beieber is so hawt!"

[Enduar]

I figured quoting that in the first post would clarify that I know why Westwood was destroyed and under what conditions EA took over. Or you can get sarcastic about it and try to make it appear as though I'm making unreasonable assumptions.

[RedAlert2008]

For shame! I commit to memory every single YouTube comment I read. As a result, my brain is 80% composed of misspelled racial epithets, while the other 20% is various variations of "Justin Beieber is so hawt!"

I knew it!!!!!

You love Justin Beiber.....

[Commander_McNash]

If you look to my first post you'll see I quoted directly from one of my own comments on the fourth video of that series. If westwood were to kill themselves they should have been allowed to die for their own mistakes. Not kept alive so another company with no intention of keeping the series alive in the ways that made it great can simply use it to profit on the name they had no hand in creating.

Dude are you actually serious? When you are talking about "let westwood kill themselves" means literally you are letting a franchise which has generated hundreds of jobs and economical growth get destroyed just due some personal dislike, the whole idea of "let Westwood die" is just as irrational and cruel as destroying natural resources or bombing factories, sorry to say this man, but no one in his sane judgement may want to ask for destroying economical resources, we are not even talking about arms industry but a videogame company,if the C&C brand had died out it would have mean a considerable amount of people may have ended without a job, havent you seen the effects of economic crisis these last years? Is that what you want? More to the point, you are basing this in your own personal tastes ignoring that many people actually enjoyed the game, and all who where part of the project earnt a living.

Look, I really dislike lots of things in this world, but I know if they no longer existed tomorrow a considerable amount of our planet population are going to end homeless starving due lack of income, and I tell you this not just bcs it's a fancy theory, but it's what I have come to understand since I started to work, me, my coworkers and my boss will prefer to get a new chance if some of our products failed before letting the company sink.

I really think you should reconsider your thoughs.

[Moongrave]

Economy the worlds biggest crime and killer

[Commander_McNash]

Economy the worlds biggest crime and killer

Actually, one of the reason we have managed to become more than a bunch of chimps getting eaten by lions and leopards is bcs of economic activity, you couldnt even have a chance to write what you are writting if you didnt have your computer, the building where you are, the food you ate, the electricity and internet, which are made of metal, plastic and other stuff which require industrial development, resource extraction, even your clothes (unless you are naked :rolleyes: ), your country, like mine have managed to become a better place thanks to economic development, before Peru's economic growth (and I am sure something similar happened in Malasya), my father, who is a medic, had to watch in impotence hundreds of infants die due lack of resources and the wrong desicions taken by the old goverment, but thanks the next government took the right political and economic policies they now can save them and give the young boys required treatments and medicine, and I dont have to see my father or his collegues falling in desperation, neither the families of those kids.

Economy is not bad by itself, it's the wrong decisions from people (like every single other human activity) what makes things bad, my suggestion? Always tray to take the right decision, Victory Games should tray to take the right decisions, the best we can do is give our grain of sand and tell them through the channel how they could improve the franchise, we already have enough derrotism around to stop being pragmatic and fix things up.

[Moongrave]

Actually, one of the reason we have managed to become more than a bunch of chimps getting eaten by lions and leopards is bcs of economic activity, you couldnt even have a chance to write what you are writting if you didnt have your computer, the building where you are, the food you ate, the electricity and internet, which are made of metal, plastic and other stuff which require industrial development, resource extraction, even your clothes (unless you are naked :rolleyes: ), your country, like mine have managed to become a better place thanks to economic development, before Peru's economic growth (and I am sure something similar happened in Malasya), my father, who is a medic, had to watch in impotence hundreds of infants die due lack of resources and the wrong desicions taken by the old goverment, but thanks the next government took the right political and economic policies they now can save them and give the young boys required treatments and medicine, and I dont have to see my father or his collegues falling in desperation, neither the families of those kids.

Economy is not bad by itself, it's the wrong decisions from people (like every single other human activity) what makes things bad, my suggestion? Always tray to take the right decision, Victory Games should tray to take the right decisions, the best we can do is give our grain of sand and tell them through the channel how they could improve the franchise, we already have enough derrotism around to stop being pragmatic and fix things up.

I would say the people who exploit the economy makes economy evil

[Enduar]

It's clear what amount of creativity EA has is limited to the main stream by either the people they have hired, or the leashes put on the team by those giving their paychecks. But I can tell you now the amount of creativity demonstrated by their continuous decline is nothing they should be proud of. They rode the back of what Westwood started simply because they wanted to utilize it's existing fanbase for their own economic gains- Something they could have easily done by creating an original series and not piggybacking something that was not rightfully theirs.

And are you seriously going to tell me that "Jobs would have been lost and babies would be starving" if EA had just left Westwood to fail? They could have just as easily used their marketing muscle to start and push an entirely new series to experiment with like they did with C&C, but instead they manipulated us?

Westwood should have died because of their own mistakes in predicting what would sell and what would not, not because I harbor distaste in their decisions.

You have a really dramatic notion in your mind if you think me saying someone should feel the repercussions of their own mistakes is akin to personally bombing a factory and the like. And if you really want to know what is going to destroy the economy you should look at this company EA which is intentionally buying up the market so they can control it. What the hell do you think that is going to do to competition? To Innovation?

I'll tell you one thing, and that is the fact that "My personal tastes" are there for a reason and aren't as personal as you'd think. I find it very difficult to remain entertained and immersed in a video game that cannot hold my attention with fresh and intellectual gameplay. All this arcade-style BS EA has been producing is bound to fail.

There is a random element to environmental games that allows them to be unpredictable and challenging on a level that is more than just the "Tic-Tac-Toe" gameplay EA has been desperately trying to push on us. Tiberian Sun was closely following that element, with random events like Ion Storms and Life Forms in their multiplayer as well as randomly generated maps.

The random element allows balance to be more vague, meaning that a player's ability to assess the situation and adapt is more important than their ability to memorize what unit is best to spam, what parts of the map to control, and how quickly they can click their mouse. Westwoods calmer, more strategic approach was what made their games memorable, and is the same reason why EA's trash will be lost with all the other crap games out there. I've watched this horrible evolution unfold taking what was quickly becoming modular realistic gameplay and twist it to be entirely hollow and predictable.

If you want actual discussion to take place in this thread I would suggest you refrain from calling me what amounts to a terrorist/nihilist and start to look at what I've actually suggested in this thread. I've pointed out core elements of the ORIGINAL games that drastically enhanced their longevity and success in the market and emphasized what made them important. You can call it personal opinion if you want, but I really don't care- These are my observations, and simply pointing out that I'm a third party to the Dev Team is not going to make me think I don't matter. I am at least worth 60 dollars to them.

[Moongrave]

So VicG should just go to the roots of C&C to make a good game???

[Commander_McNash]

So VicG should just go to the roots of C&C to make a good game???

I think that may be a good idea, and since they want to innovate they may do it by giving us better and more optimised graphics, interface, new songs, that's a very nice way of innovating things :D

[Moongrave]

I think that may be a good idea, and since they want to innovate they may do it by giving us better and more optimised graphics, interface, new songs, that's a very nice way of innovating things :D

I am not saying remake C&C but take the core components with extra stuff and put it in a new game

[Commander_McNash]

I am not saying remake C&C but take the core components with extra stuff and put it in a new game

This is what I believe for what I have read all over the internet, what most people want, including most of the guys here.

I am not trying to imagine something too precise, anyone who does this in something which is not in charge of achieving it may get a terrible disappointment, but I have hope for some old classic core stuff mixed with some new good ideas.

[Enduar]

Pretty much exactly what I said in the first post.

[Commander_McNash]

Pretty much exactly what I said in the first post.

Fine, it seems we all here have achieved some agreement ;)

[Enduar]

:D Sounds good. Now if we're in agreement it's time to rally support for the cause if we hope to actually get any attention. I think the best method of affecting the outcome of the game is not to propose new ideas and confuse the Devs but help emphasize what worked to begin with.

Modernization of the classic C&C mechanics is what needs to be focused on here.

[Commander_McNash]

:D Sounds good. Now if we're in agreement it's time to rally support for the cause if we hope to actually get any attention. I think the best method of affecting the outcome of the game is not to propose new ideas and confuse the Devs but help emphasize what worked to begin with.

Modernization of the classic C&C mechanics is what needs to be focused on here.

Right now this is what we are trying to do in the other thread about community feedback, sure not all the suggestions support the classic model, but the more voices we have supporting the classic ideas the better.

[arthas1250]

my only demand for the next C&C title is that T3 units actually deserve to be there, not like the C&C4 bullcrap were 2-3 T1 units can take out any T3 units

a heroic C&C3 mammoth tank would be the perfect example on how i want T3 units to be in future C&C tittles, it was hard keep them alive until they reached that level but you felt rewarded once those untis hit the Heroic lvl

also something i always wanted to see, units should change in look everytime they get a veterancy level, not only they would look badass but also would be easy to recocnize and take the necesary strategy to beat them, not that you can't see the veterancy icon above the unit but that's boring, visual change is betta !! like when the lazer from the Avatar in C&C3 change from red to a very bright blue once it gets to heroic veterancy level

[Commander_McNash]

Customisable skins like those from Dawn of War 2 and Call of Duty would be awesome!

[Moongrave]

What I want is actually 'veteran units'(mercenaries from Starcraft 2) like units with custom paint jobs and weapons that can be called down to help

[HOPE1134]

Customisable skins like those from Dawn of War 2 would be awesome!

omg yes! just paint the units with the brightest color to blind other players

[arthas1250]

What I want is actually 'veteran units'(mercenaries from Starcraft 2) like units with custom paint jobs and weapons that can be called down to help

those would be overkill once you get them to heroic level, but it's a nice idea regardless

[Moongrave]

those would be overkill once you get them to heroic level, but it's a nice idea regardless

Not really

If VicG balance them right they still can be defeated

[Moongrave]

omg yes! just paint the units with the brightest color to blind other players

I can imagine playing a custom map and the units are the same colour as the whole map lol

[Enduar]

:| This is turning a discussion about new content.

[Commander_McNash]

:| This is turning a discussion about new content.

Yeah, let me fix that...

[arthas1250]

:| This is turning a discussion about new content.

well that was just what i wanted in the next C&C game, even if VG goes to the old C&C formula i want a thing or two added to the mix, and these ideas don't change the core gameplay in any way shape or form, every C&C game had veterancy, in every C&C game ( except C&C4) when a T3 get's to heroic level it's overkill for any T2-T1 units, so no problems there

new content don't hurt anyone, as long as it does not affect the core game, it's ok

[Enduar]

To be honest I don't think they will understand the the difference between us suggesting customizable unit skins and far more important things like classic core mechanics.

[arthas1250]

To be honest I don't think they will understand the the difference between us suggesting customizable unit skins and far more important things like classic core mechanics.

im pretty sure you don't need to remain the developers to stick to the classic core mechanics after what happened with C&C4, everything that comes from now on will be (hopefully) a C&C game, but as i said before, new feature are always good if they let the core gameplay untouch

[Moongrave]

im pretty sure you don't need to remain the developers to stick to the classic core mechanics after what happened with C&C4, everything that comes from now on will be (hopefully) a C&C game, but as i said before, new feature are always good if they let the core gameplay untouch

So basically it the same C&C but with more units, more features, more buildings, more tech trees, more customization and etc...

[Enduar]

im pretty sure you don't need to remain the developers to stick to the classic core mechanics after what happened with C&C4, everything that comes from now on will be (hopefully) a C&C game, but as i said before, new feature are always good if they let the core gameplay untouch

What the steady progression of bad content and choices by EA's dev teams, I don't think it's a good idea to take chances.

[Gobias]

There is a random element to environmental games that allows them to be unpredictable and challenging on a level that is more than just the "Tic-Tac-Toe" gameplay EA has been desperately trying to push on us. Tiberian Sun was closely following that element, with random events like Ion Storms and Life Forms in their multiplayer as well as randomly generated maps.

The random element allows balance to be more vague, meaning that a player's ability to assess the situation and adapt is more important than their ability to memorize what unit is best to spam, what parts of the map to control, and how quickly they can click their mouse. Westwoods calmer, more strategic approach was what made their games memorable, and is the same reason why EA's trash will be lost with all the other crap games out there. I've watched this horrible evolution unfold taking what was quickly becoming modular realistic gameplay and twist it to be entirely hollow and predictable.

I think the random element was removed in part to appease the professional gaming crowd, but it was probably also removed simple because it amounted in less work for the developers.

[Heron]

I think the random element was removed in part to appease the professional gaming crowd, but it was probably also removed simple because it amounted in less work for the developers.

Hear, hear. The random element is great for me since you have to give the environment considerations too when you fight (like in a real war), but I always thought that this makes hard work for the developers since they were already running a tight ship at EALA. Besides, seeing SC2 tout its 'environment' interaction reduced to just rocks in MP sucks. Lava in MP FTW!

[Gobias]

Hear, hear. The random element is great for me since you have to give the environment considerations too when you fight (like in a real war), but I always thought that this makes hard work for the developers since they were already running a tight ship at EALA. Besides, seeing SC2 tout its 'environment' interaction reduced to just rocks in MP sucks. Lava in MP FTW!
Even if the random stuff wasn't used in multiplayer, it would've been nice to have it in the campaign. I said the exact same thing in the lead up to C&C 3 on these forums.

[Enduar]

The random element does not make things more difficult, it makes them easier. The trick is STARTING with the random element. It's like constructing a physics engine. You take the most basic elements into account first and build off of it. Once mechanics are introduced that are initially apart of the random element, balancing all aspects of the game become less of a math equation and more of a realistic generalization. You don't have cookie-cutter units that have to exactly compliment eachother.

[Heron]

The random element does not make things more difficult, it makes them easier. The trick is STARTING with the random element. It's like constructing a physics engine. You take the most basic elements into account first and build off of it. Once mechanics are introduced that are initially apart of the random element, balancing all aspects of the game become less of a math equation and more of a realistic generalization. You don't have cookie-cutter units that have to exactly compliment eachother.

I like your idea, but the thing is, its more about the programming. We cannot assume that the random element is easy to code, and some gamers rather not deal with the random effects. It's sad though, since games are headed to be more realistic...

[Enduar]

Is it harder to create a series of many events generated by a single engine, or as many events that were painstakingly coded one by one as individual scripts?

Make a million tediously balanced multiplayer maps, or one single map generator that can be tweaked to give the player control of many aspects of the final output to suit their own standards.

Tediously ensure each unit's damage and health is tweaked to be sure that no single faction is stronger than the other, or generalize and ensure that each round fired has a random array of damage to incorporate things like glancing blows, dud rounds, vital blows, etc.

Factoring chaos into the equation ensures that all aspects of the game have a bit of leniency when it comes to the actual output. Chaos promises that long after the game has been released, the sheer number of random factors will keep each playthrough and each match a unique experience.

[Heron]

Is it harder to create a series of many events generated by a single engine, or as many events that were painstakingly coded one by one as individual scripts?

Make a million tediously balanced multiplayer maps, or one single map generator that can be tweaked to give the player control of many aspects of the final output to suit their own standards.

Tediously ensure each unit's damage and health is tweaked to be sure that no single faction is stronger than the other, or generalize and ensure that each round fired has a random array of damage to incorporate things like glancing blows, dud rounds, vital blows, etc.

Factoring chaos into the equation ensures that all aspects of the game have a bit of leniency when it comes to the actual output. Chaos promises that long after the game has been released, the sheer number of random factors will keep each playthrough and each match a unique experience.

I agree with you, and I will really have such a game, remembering that weather is the single, biggest tide-turner in history (think Russian winter). The issue is really, can the devs handle it? And will the pro players accept such a game?

[JuDgEpowr]

I AGREE, I JUST @#$@#$@#$ AFTER I READ THIS...

ffs listen to your customers . im old returning c&c checking the new new's latley been years.

[Enduar]

The single biggest issue is that people seem to think realistic games are only for the hardcore realist gamers. That is entirely false and it really pisses me off. Initially it might seem like it, primarily because games that aim for realism are initially simulators and strive for perfection on that aspect. Which in turn makes the games less user friendly.

Chaos and Realism is what makes games MORE intuitive and more adaptable. If it can be managed, tournament-style competitive play is just as achievable with semi-realistic games and simulators as it is with arcade-style ones. People seem to forget that most games tried to simulate at first. Things have gradually dumbed down for the main stream, and as a result the longevity of games is suffering dearly.

EA needs to break away from the idea that arcade-style and instant gratification means you'll have a successful game. If you really want something that will leave a legacy and last as long as C&C has (even with EA trashing it) then you need to return to where everything started.

[Moongrave]

The single biggest issue is that people seem to think realistic games are only for the hardcore realist gamers. That is entirely false and it really pisses me off. Initially it might seem like it, primarily because games that aim for realism are initially simulators and strive for perfection on that aspect. Which in turn makes the games less user friendly.

Chaos and Realism is what makes games MORE intuitive and more adaptable. If it can be managed, tournament-style competitive play is just as achievable with semi-realistic games and simulators as it is with arcade-style ones. People seem to forget that most games tried to simulate at first. Things have gradually dumbed down for the main stream, and as a result the longevity of games is suffering dearly.

EA needs to break away from the idea that arcade-style and instant gratification means you'll have a successful game. If you really want something that will leave a legacy and last as long as C&C has (even with EA trashing it) then you need to return to where everything started.

How does realistic = only for the hardcore


It's just eye candy how does that effect other people

[Commander_Alt_F4]

How does realistic = only for the hardcore


It's just eye candy how does that effect other people


indeed, i play RTS without those eye candy and having fun, cause of gameplay

[Enduar]

I mean realism in gameplay, as well. Mostly you'll see it in environmental effects, terrain, movement, and most importantly how you can kill units. A small amount of realism was seen in C&C 3 by the fact that the rear of tanks was vulnerable. One of the few things I've liked from an EA C&C.

Most people don't like realism because it makes things seem harder, but you'll find people complain about it more in the FPS genre than RTS.

[Havok2100X]

Well, I am not going to bash Victory games just yet. Command and conquer 4 was of course garbage, but lets give them a shot and see what the Victory people can do.

[Klandri]

I think Victory Games are going to make an excellent game and like someone already pointed out I think it's too soon to bash them.

[Enduar]

Too soon to bash them? This is the same EA that controlled the last game, that will be controlling this team. This isn't bashing them, this is the last sign of respect from me before I really just don't give a damn about any further EA releases. To at least show up early to the fight and put on the table exactly what needs to be done in the hopes that C&C can be salvaged.

[Gobias]

Too soon to bash them? This is the same EA that controlled the last game, that will be controlling this team. This isn't bashing them, this is the last sign of respect from me before I really just don't give a damn about any further EA releases. To at least show up early to the fight and put on the table exactly what needs to be done in the hopes that C&C can be salvaged.
Those who say we should hold back on criticism now probably don't understand that it's next to impossible to get things changed or added to a game even once it's just been announced. It's just too late in the production by then.

[Heron]

Might I add that C&C4 is the main reason why we cannot afford to hold back. C&C4's announcement came, and despite the huge amount of criticisms leveled on this forum and beyond, failed to sway the EA management that returning it to Arena might be the sensible thing to do, and instead pushed on with this game.

We cannot afford to hold back. At all.

[Adder24]

Lets give them a shot. They can't do no worse. SURELY!

[Gobias]

Lets give them a shot. They can't do no worse. SURELY!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_qS370JXQG2s/SwdEtp6UX0I/AAAAAAAAAUQ/X5hk4bUfOvw/s1600/BG_Forest_styles_v1.jpg

[Enduar]

I could see that easily happening.

[Heron]

I wouldn't mind that if it is a spinoff. Just don't make it C&C5:FB revolution.

[Enduar]

:| Facebook games are bad and you should feel bad.

[Kyang]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_qS370JXQG2s/SwdEtp6UX0I/AAAAAAAAAUQ/X5hk4bUfOvw/s1600/BG_Forest_styles_v1.jpg


I would totally play that.

The Mammoth tanks are missing half of their rockets though.