Individual factions

[LukaColic0]

Subject:
Everyone has a his sub-faction.

Description:
Everyone has a his sub-faction.The player has parts and tools(and weapons) to give to a unit.A unit editor.The player gets parts in the campaign.The more stronger the parts the more they cost.

Positive Effect:
-More differences between players.
-New layer of strategy.

Negative Effect:
-More work for the V.G.
-If unbalanced it will destroy the game.

[Gyrannon]

Subject:
Everyone has a his sub-faction.

Description:
Everyone has a his sub-faction.The player has parts and tools(and weapons) to give to a unit.A unit editor.The player gets parts in the campaign.The more stronger the parts the more they cost.

Positive Effect:
-More differences between players.
-New layer of strategy.

Negative Effect:
-More work for the V.G.
-If unbalanced it will destroy the game.

This idea sounds like it could work an I doubt there would be an noticable unbalancing in this because they would be individual upgrades, and there would no doubt be a limit to how many units you could upgrade in a single game.
But with your idea, I would add an extension to the "Unit promoted" system; more promotions for every unit like 5 to 10 stars max (super units no doubt would be the hardest to get to the max).

I do like the idea, but how many parts, tools, an weapons do you think should be added, if they were to use your idea? And then, how would they acquire said items?

[WeedWhacker92]

I'm not so sure this really can work unless the whole game is focused on player customization. There was speculation that C&C 4 would have some system like this, but why try and experiment with something like this, when the tried and true system works already?


If it's not broke, don't fix it.

Sure it would be something different and new, but it could create horrible balance if a player has no clue how to make a custom army with any level of skill.

[LukaColic0]

This idea sounds like it could work an I doubt there would be an noticable unbalancing in this because they would be individual upgrades, and there would no doubt be a limit to how many units you could upgrade in a single game.
But with your idea, I would add an extension to the "Unit promoted" system; more promotions for every unit like 5 to 10 stars max (super units no doubt would be the hardest to get to the max).

I do like the idea, but how many parts, tools, an weapons do you think should be added, if they were to use your idea? And then, how would they acquire said items?
I think there should be a least 5 parts for a 1 unit.Some give them speed , some armor , they increase or decrease dmg. , and so on ...

[LukaColic0]

I'm not so sure this really can work unless the whole game is focused on player customization. There was speculation that C&C 4 would have some system like this, but why try and experiment with something like this, when the tried and true system works already?



Sure it would be something different and new, but it could create horrible balance if a player has no clue how to make a custom army with any level of skill.
EA made the game work around the system of player progression,this is similar but in CNC4:TT the player unlocks units.
My idea is that the player can change units in the way he needs for his strategy.This like you change the unit stats in a mod and how the unit looks and costs.It's only unbalanced if V.G. makes to powerful parts and weapons for units.It's balance because it's for SP not MP.I didn't wrote it for some reason.

[GeneralSGJist]

if it for SP only u can go do whatever, make all stats over 9000, no matter.

Go look at Ra3 Uprising, units imbalanced, no matter no online part.
And the C&C4 progression system was flawd in so many ways.

[Gyrannon]

if it for SP only u can go do whatever, make all stats over 9000, no matter.

Go look at Ra3 Uprising, units unbalanced (not imbalanced), no matter no online part.
And the C&C4 progression system was flawd in so many ways.

Big difference between RA3U & C&C4 - C&C4 had a PROFILE level up system (THAT ruined the game), the only bad thing about RA3U was that it wasn't multiplayer; one was ONLY online, the other was ONLY offline SP.

[LukaColic0]

if it for SP only u can go do whatever, make all stats over 9000, no matter.

Go look at Ra3 Uprising, units imbalanced, no matter no online part.
And the C&C4 progression system was flawd in so many ways.

NOT LIKE CNC4:TT.This kinda like Spore.Look at this game (ONLY THE EDITOR) http://armorgames.com/play/10205/scrap-metal-heroes .Something like this editor.But not only like this but this + spore editor.

[LukaColic0]

not like cnc4:tt.this kinda like spore.look at this game (only the editor) http://armorgames.com/play/10205/scrap-metal-heroes .something like this editor.but not only like this but this + spore editor.

no profile level system.

[theintruder001]

maybe it there is an easier way: before the game starts create customized units, with pre defined bodys and turrets (and possible special abilitys (of course more expensive).
more or less like
http://www.wz2100.net

but if you have only a few customized units it is balanced...

[Plasticz]

You mean like: Age Of Empires Online (http://www.ageofempiresonline.com/)? That has customizable units. I think it makes it better, and makes a lot of sense. Each nation\faction, would be different.

[=LEVIATHEN=]

-If unbalanced it will destroy the game.

While that is true,Luka,it would really be up to the player creating the faction to balance out his own units.For example,you cant have an all anti-tank army,because the enemy might send infantry at you.The player has to take that into consideration.

And also,while I like this idea a lot (I've actually thought of it a while ago) I must disagree with putting your own sub-faction into the campaign.That is where balancing could mess up the game,since you may need certain units where you don't have any.It would limit the campaign a lot.I think the custom faction should be saved for skirmish and multiplayer.

[MILINTarctrooper]

While that is true,Luka,it would really be up to the player creating the faction to balance out his own units.For example,you cant have an all anti-tank army,because the enemy might send infantry at you.The player has to take that into consideration.

And also,while I like this idea a lot (I've actually thought of it a while ago) I must disagree with putting your own sub-faction into the campaign.That is where balancing could mess up the game,since you may need certain units where you don't have any.It would limit the campaign a lot.I think the custom faction should be saved for skirmish and multiplayer.

Just to throw a funny in...during the COHO...Company of Heroes Online Beta...I remember this goofy comment. "If the powers and units are unbalanced its balanced!" Now what I find interest in the commentary is...like Leviathan says...it has some potential of disbalance...but then an over specialized player is vulnerable to a mixed bag, or counter specific faction. If the designers work it out...well the factions could be done like that...almost like the Strike Forces in KW.

However, I would say...my subfaction would be me being able to keep heroic vetted units and after a game upgrading them uniquely for use as "heroes" in the next match.

And no stats...it adds alot of dropping and grinding, which I believe is unfair to good players. Having a stat less but limited force system would play out well. In Tiberium Wars...they do this in the way you can spawn in...the higher tech a unit the fewer you get.

[StormWolf]

Having the ability to create your own individual faction would be an awesome feature allowing for more player customization. But the main issue would have to be the imbalance amongst all the different player choices.

[phoenixcrap]

i like the idea. but it would be a big undertaking. and then you also get the special units. take for example a sniper. you could start of as a level 1 player like in cnc4(using it as an example for a good idea is kinda feeling weird) and can only equip the gun. as you level up the units do too. so now he has more "slots" to place items, like his camoflage, his stealth detector, c4 satchel(just an example) and anything else up to a certain limit. you could do this with minigunners and every unit but like a tech tree you have to build up to certain abilities.
also maybe a career points system would be good too. so for example you win a game you get 10 points you draw a game(dunno how you do this but hey i not the one programming, just offering ideas) you get 5 and if you lose you get 1(you want new people to still be able to level up)
you then apply these career points to the upgrades you wish to use in the tech tree, for example camoflage, stealth detection, fre rate, steroids(to hold bigger guns.. there might be another upgrade) etc each costing so many points and a certain level.
and last but not least i bring to mind yugi oh or pokemon. you have all the units availble. but when a match comes up you see what 10 units they have and you get to choose 10 units to counter and beat them. choose 1 each til full selection is completed.(10 is just a random number i came up with) you can see all of your opponents units and they can see all of yours in the selection that way you can create a team you hope they cant beat.
anyway i rambled enough

[LukaColic0]

i like the idea. but it would be a big undertaking. and then you also get the special units. take for example a sniper. you could start of as a level 1 player like in cnc4(using it as an example for a good idea is kinda feeling weird) and can only equip the gun. as you level up the units do too. so now he has more "slots" to place items, like his camoflage, his stealth detector, c4 satchel(just an example) and anything else up to a certain limit. you could do this with minigunners and every unit but like a tech tree you have to build up to certain abilities.
also maybe a career points system would be good too. so for example you win a game you get 10 points you draw a game(dunno how you do this but hey i not the one programming, just offering ideas) you get 5 and if you lose you get 1(you want new people to still be able to level up)
you then apply these career points to the upgrades you wish to use in the tech tree, for example camoflage, stealth detection, fre rate, steroids(to hold bigger guns.. there might be another upgrade) etc each costing so many points and a certain level.
and last but not least i bring to mind yugi oh or pokemon. you have all the units availble. but when a match comes up you see what 10 units they have and you get to choose 10 units to counter and beat them. choose 1 each til full selection is completed.(10 is just a random number i came up with) you can see all of your opponents units and they can see all of yours in the selection that way you can create a team you hope they cant beat.
anyway i rambled enough

something like that

[LukaColic0]

My idea is to get points after each battle and use them to unlock parts.A Titan has as default a medium canon.Then if you unlock a heavy canon it will do more dmg. but it will be slower and cost more or if unlock a light canon the Titan will fire more speedy and the Titan will move faster,but do less dmg.

Something like that.

[phoenixcrap]

yes but also as you level up you not just get bigger weapons, you could gain access to the elite materials, which means armour is lighter and more durable, faster engines etc.
easiest way to describe it is to have slots say 3 no matter how high you get thats what a titan can hold, its the design of it 3 slots
you get to choose big gun, fast speed, heavy armour, bigger gun with ammo, shields, detonator(to explode on death killing enemies around it).... problem is you can only choose 3 of those.
then on top of that you can make your entire arsenal out of titan shells. some are just armoured thugs, some being back row heavy gunner. or you could change the juggernaught etc....
just list what types of things you want to customise(name HAS to be one or you'll get confused real easy, another could be paint job, as stated in another thread in this forum) then create an easy to use interface to allow everyone to do it.
big project but hell yeah i wanna play it

[LukaColic0]

Yes you said it.

[generals_addict]

I don't want to sound like I'd like to rain on everyone's parade, but I'm not so sure this is a good idea as being central to the game. I like the idea of being able to customize if you want to in certain situations, but having it core to game strategy seems to taint the idea of C&C imo. As an alternate game mode, sure I have no problem with that.

But incorporated into the whole game, here's a problem I see:
If every faction has 20+ infantry, tanks, and aircrafts to choose from, and 2,3, or up to 5 modifications for every given unit, it is a monstrous amount of info to keep up with. In addition, if not all of those upgrades are "visual upgrades" (see other thread on this), then the player won't be able to anticipate what kind of power(s) each unit has.

It seems if they implemented this, the same sort of upgrades would be applied to every faction, which imo would reduce the uniqueness of each faction and involve too much micromanagement. Another thing to think about, would these mods apply to all units of a given type as they're being produced, or be individual to each unit? If for each unit, that seems like too much of a hassle to me, sorry.

[Meyerm]

This is a good idea for single player, but not the best choice for multiplayer if more experianced players have access to better things.

[Ratter116]

You could introduce a ranking and matchmaking system so if someone is a higher rank and has better weapons and upgrades you wont face them. You could face people with the same amount of upgrades but to different units etc. This could keep the game fresh indefinately or at least until someone comes out with a youtube video on "how to make the perfect C&C army".

[Ratter116]

And not blow things out of proportions matchmaking won't be mandatory we don't need to limit our freedoms like they do on consoles....

[phoenixcrap]

ok as stated before there is no need to worry about looking up EVERY unit the opposition has. you could possibly make hundreds of units, but the game would only allow say 10 units in(random number) so you only have to accommodate those 10 units. and on top of that you'll be able to click on the unit they choose to see what boosts they have.
when i say 10 units this could possibly be on top of the already used units, so rather than being a total battle of customised units there will be some familiar ones there too.

[LukaColic0]

I don't want to sound like I'd like to rain on everyone's parade, but I'm not so sure this is a good idea as being central to the game. I like the idea of being able to customize if you want to in certain situations, but having it core to game strategy seems to taint the idea of C&C imo. As an alternate game mode, sure I have no problem with that.

But incorporated into the whole game, here's a problem I see:
If every faction has 20+ infantry, tanks, and aircrafts to choose from, and 2,3, or up to 5 modifications for every given unit, it is a monstrous amount of info to keep up with. In addition, if not all of those upgrades are "visual upgrades" (see other thread on this), then the player won't be able to anticipate what kind of power(s) each unit has.

It seems if they implemented this, the same sort of upgrades would be applied to every faction, which imo would reduce the uniqueness of each faction and involve too much micromanagement. Another thing to think about, would these mods apply to all units of a given type as they're being produced, or be individual to each unit? If for each unit, that seems like too much of a hassle to me, sorry.

Every faction will have different weapons and parts.

[phoenixcrap]

i agree that each faction has its own ability... stealth is pretty unique to nod... i cannot remember a gdi unit that used stealth,

and from the tib universe i think gdi pretty much had space covered(they had a space station til they got in the way of a nuclear missile...or thats how i saw it happen anyway) so any jump up to the stratosphere and fly by down on the target ability would be gdi's

nod was more tib based so a certain immunity to the effects of tiberian would be a nod thing too

not including veteran units and the 3 epics from cnc3, i believe the mammoth tank and its variants are the only ones to self heal... mammoth tank being gdi.. its a gdi ability

the list goes on. there are things that would make the game alot of fun.. but if you do things like making an infantry have the same weapon as a juggernaught then thats gonna be problematic.
also i would love to make a unit with a personl ion cannon from renegade, that would be fun

[MILINTarctrooper]

i agree that each faction has its own ability... stealth is pretty unique to nod... i cannot remember a gdi unit that used stealth,

and from the tib universe i think gdi pretty much had space covered(they had a space station til they got in the way of a nuclear missile...or thats how i saw it happen anyway) so any jump up to the stratosphere and fly by down on the target ability would be gdi's

nod was more tib based so a certain immunity to the effects of tiberian would be a nod thing too

not including veteran units and the 3 epics from cnc3, i believe the mammoth tank and its variants are the only ones to self heal... mammoth tank being gdi.. its a gdi ability

the list goes on. there are things that would make the game alot of fun.. but if you do things like making an infantry have the same weapon as a juggernaught then thats gonna be problematic.
also i would love to make a unit with a personl ion cannon from renegade, that would be fun
One of the major disappointments in the CnC3 zone of interest is the fact of dumbing down the air side of the equation. Not as much micro for certain units...Nod Venom..cough. In Tiberium Sun GDI rules the skies, and can move a large majority of units into combat via carryalls, or if you were crate lucky and got a GDI dropship, or ORCA transport. The sad thing was you paid $500 a unit in C&C3 for a one time transport anywhere on the battlefield. GDI got jipped because its heavier material...Juggernauts, and Mamooth tanks couldn't be moved and in many games got left behind. In Tiberium Sun you used the GDI carryall, and the easter egg crate GDI dropship to deliver your heavy armor units into combat. But it came with a downside...GDI has to send its units back to a repair yard to heal them. I think the fact that was not thought out is problematic. Because in all post Generals games. CnC3 onwards we were introduced to area repair affects, and continual "medic" repair units. I think its a thought process of strategy that needs to thought out.

[LukaColic0]

/.../
also i would love to make a unit with a personl ion cannon from renegade, that would be fun

That would be fun.


One of the major disappointments in the CnC3 zone of interest is the fact of dumbing down the air side of the equation. Not as much micro for certain units...Nod Venom..cough. In Tiberium Sun GDI rules the skies, and can move a large majority of units into combat via carryalls, or if you were crate lucky and got a GDI dropship, or ORCA transport. The sad thing was you paid $500 a unit in C&C3 for a one time transport anywhere on the battlefield. GDI got jipped because its heavier material...Juggernauts, and Mamooth tanks couldn't be moved and in many games got left behind. In Tiberium Sun you used the GDI carryall, and the easter egg crate GDI dropship to deliver your heavy armor units into combat. But it came with a downside...GDI has to send its units back to a repair yard to heal them. I think the fact that was not thought out is problematic. Because in all post Generals games. CnC3 onwards we were introduced to area repair affects, and continual "medic" repair units. I think its a thought process of strategy that needs to thought out.

Medic units in TW and KW are A-OK.

[WeedWhacker92]

This is a good idea for single player, but not the best choice for multiplayer if more experianced players have access to better things.

And this system DOES work in a singleplayer campaign, look at Starcraft II and it's new expansion. This is the only way this could really work out in the game, as multiplayer balance is a must, and a system like so in the multiplayer scheme really would throw that balance for a loop.

[generals_addict]

ok as stated before there is no need to worry about looking up EVERY unit the opposition has. you could possibly make hundreds of units, but the game would only allow say 10 units in(random number) so you only have to accommodate those 10 units. and on top of that you'll be able to click on the unit they choose to see what boosts they have.
when i say 10 units this could possibly be on top of the already used units, so rather than being a total battle of customised units there will be some familiar ones there too.

Ah, now that seems a bit more practical! The system I was imagining was the hundreds of combinations and each player would have to figure out what of those hundreds he or she was using. Sorry if I misunderstood the OP or your earlier post. Now, by these 10 units I'm assuming that you can only have 10 types for manufacture or training in a given game? For instance, a heavy double barreled tank like a mammoth or overlord could possibly have anti-air defense, healing powers, extra armor, but that the war factory would only crank out the same features for a given tank? I don't think I would like the opponent to be able to alternate mods within the same game, but that's just me.
Also, in response to the comment "factions will have different upgrades," ideally yes I can see that. I was just introducing the possibility that, if there were many different "war widgets" and mods for all kinds of units, there could be a possibility that there would be less variability across subfactions. Basically, if the devs had 100+ units to design, and then put mod abilities on all of them, they may be tempted to make generic "anti-tank", "anti-air", "extra armor" sorts of upgrades that don't really map to the faction's individual style (for ease of development). You could call them blanket features for all factions. This would be my main concern, other than the "many combinations" that phoenix seemed to address pretty well.

[phoenixcrap]

ok lets pretend we are playing, you choose 10 units. your opponent sees them and has made his/her choices. once in game you get the standrd units PLUS the 10 you choose(so rather than a mammoth tank having 2 big tank killing railguns one could possibly be a gatlin railgun that zone troopers use..i use cnc3 for my examples btw) now you also chose1 modified mammoth tank we'll call killall(as it now is good against tanks air and infantry) so when you are playing you move your mouse around the map and see what looks like a mommaoth tank, new colours, different gun(in some cases the gun won't be different) but when you hover over it or click on it in the bottom right it shows you what the unit has special to it... well thats how i see it happening for now... the person/people who code it probably will get a better way to display the changes in game.
also i agree that if you have certain upgrade people will usually go for tank killing units, anti air etc
having said that, if this mod comes out i refer back to my "yugioh/pokemon" comment. before you play against someone you get to see their entire aresnal and see if they have just made big armoured goliaths or if they utilise the strategic upgrades like stealth. if you think they would be a good match then you go to the next step of seecting units... if they chose in a style that you think will hinder gameplay you will have a private chat and if you don't wanna play you don't have to. once you accept units however thats when points are involved.
last but not least if you do find yourself up against people who like building heavily armoured thugs, then find a player who can hold his own against them, use suppoert technic to invade them(stealth up to their base e.g.) an kill them that way.
also just thought of another upgrade... hover... could you imagine a stealth tank that could hover over water to the enemy? awesome

[GDICanuck]

I had a similar idea about custom subfactions in the Customisability thread further down the page. So yeah, I'd be interested.

[LukaColic0]

I had a similar idea about custom subfactions in the Customisability thread further down the page. So yeah, I'd be interested.

OK GDICanuck.

[phoenixcrap]

hey am after ideas cos i would like this to go further, would it betterto make this an in game editor for painting the colours and making new units or a secondary app? i am thinking of looking at shell designs soon and if we can get a general layout of what this will look like i will make it a hobby for the next few... ages... eons til its done

[LukaColic0]

hey am after ideas cos i would like this to go further, would it betterto make this an in game editor for painting the colours and making new units or a secondary app? i am thinking of looking at shell designs soon and if we can get a general layout of what this will look like i will make it a hobby for the next few... ages... eons til its done

A in-game editor was my idea when I posted this thread.

[phoenixcrap]

ok then will see what i come up with, if you get a design for a husk that would be cool. anything to help out. then there is the allocation of each item.. this is going to be fun

[Stokertje]

Description:
Everyone has a his sub-faction.The player has parts and tools(and weapons) to give to a unit.A unit editor.The player gets parts in the campaign.The more stronger the parts the more they cost.
Age of Empires Online got such a system. In my opinion armor and weapons should only be affected through upgrades in the actual game. Also units should be unlocked by constructing buildings. Any non-strategic related content like colors or logo's on your units you may customize outside of the actual game imo. With 'in the game' I mean that you actually started a match.

[phoenixcrap]

hey stoker, this "upgrade" will make individual factions like in cnc 3. the planeterary assault carrier is used by 2 of the scrin faction. one has shields one has faster speed. the units CAN be changed, and upgraded, but of course within certain guidelines, like an infantry won't have the ability to shoot 4 miles but you could give them c4/tiberium charges to decimate a building. they will have x amount of points to spend on acquiring weapons and upgrades (some upgrades will only be purchased via in game as you said but alot can be done pre game). i was also thinking that the upgrades purchased in game for the new units would have to be purchased via a special building (i was thinking of an add-on to the epic vehicle thingys, the ones where you make the marv etc). i also would like the game to play normally up til you build that structure then for a decent amount buy the addon buildings to create your factions specific units. also a storyline showing both gdi and nod engineers taking some scrin technology would be put in place to make some of the upgrades (i was thinking a shield generator but thats cos of another thread). but until i have time to figure out the vast majority of weapons, husks(i call them husks, they are the shell to which you add armour, weapons engines etc), upgrades and anything else i fear this will be a dead project. i still have time to do it, but will take a while

[Stokertje]

I don't like the pre-game upgrades. It would mean that in multiplayer players would be able to gain an advantage before the game can actually start. As for single player it would be okay to chose pre-game options for missions, for example airsupport or a vehicle repairs ability.

I rather would like to see two (maybe three) factions and a 'wide' tech tree which allow you to specialize during the game. Like new building or the add-ons you mention to warfactories or barracks.

[phoenixcrap]

thats fine but it is not what i invision for this upgrade. this will not be made as a total conversion rather an optional expansion. of course with new factions comes new support powers, so i will see how that goes too. right now i am mucking around with a mod to have a gdi unit with a personal ion cannon like in renegade.

[wombat789]

An ammalgamation of the challenge mode in Generals with Global Conquest in Kanes Wrath .