Custom paint/camoflage schemes for vehicles.

[TJ-X]

Could we please have the ability to get our tanks in colors other than BARE METAL SILVER?? I don't care if this takes place in the future or if it's not a "realistic" game like World in Conflict, but if a tank belongs to the EU or the US it would come in either olive or tan color dammit!! I can understand why these simplistic textures existed in 2003, but this is FROSTBITE 2 we're talking about here. .

An ability to chose custom paint/color schemes for your units would certainly help. Or maybe have custom camo styles as unlocks like in Battlefield 3.

[Commander32]

Team-colors exist for a reason.

Though I expect custom unit skins as DLC.

[TJ-X]

Team-colors exist for a reason.

Though I expect custom unit skins as DLC.

Not necessarily. Team colors didnt exist for Company of Heroes but the units had the "correct" camoflage/paint schemes.

[Commander32]

Not necessarily. Team colors didnt exist for Company of Heroes but the units had the "correct" camoflage/paint schemes.

But this is CnC, ALL OF CNC RTS GAMES FROM 1995 TO 2013 ONWARDS HAD AND WILL STILL USE TEAMCOLOR, you really think they just break that? You really need to understand better.

[[GR]Agm]

Not necessarily. Team colors didnt exist for Company of Heroes but the units had the "correct" camoflage/paint schemes.
That's because in Company of Heroes, there are no mirror matches. In team games, as I recall there were indicators over your allies units (or your own, I forget which) so you wouldn't mistake your rifleman squad for his.

You need team colors in mirror matches to create clarity as to what's going on. Gameplay > realism. Though if someone wants to disable team colors while they're playing singleplayer/campaign (or want to put themselves at a disadvantage when playing online), then that's their choice to make I suppose.

[TJ-X]

But this is CnC, ALL OF CNC RTS GAMES FROM 1995 TO 2013 ONWARDS HAD AND WILL STILL USE TEAMCOLOR, you really think they just break that? You really need to understand better.

If you're that much against change, I'm surprised you're not btching about the Frostbite engine being used. I'm not even suggesting anything that would aftect the GAMEPLAY for FK's sake! Calm the hell down and try to understand why we have a forum in the first place.

[TJ-X]

That's because in Company of Heroes, there are no mirror matches. In team games, as I recall there were indicators over your allies units (or your own, I forget which) so you wouldn't mistake your rifleman squad for his.

You need team colors in mirror matches to create clarity as to what's going on. Gameplay > realism. Though if someone wants to disable team colors while they're playing singleplayer/campaign (or want to put themselves at a disadvantage when playing online), then that's their choice to make I suppose.

So we can have TEAM colors OVER custom colors, just like we ALREADY HAVE team colors over the silvery metallic texture. Ever thought of that?

[Alaskan_Viking]

LOL @ "...realistic game like World in Conflict...". LOL!

[Kodaemon.]

But this is CnC, ALL OF CNC RTS GAMES FROM 1995 TO 2013 ONWARDS HAD AND WILL STILL USE TEAMCOLOR, you really think they just break that? You really need to understand better.

Oh sweet irony...


Though if someone wants to disable team colors while they're playing singleplayer/campaign (or want to put themselves at a disadvantage when playing online), then that's their choice to make I suppose.

That wouldn't work either, what about capturing mechanics or singleplayer mirror matches? Remember those Nod vs. Nod missions etc.?

[Commander32]

HOWEVER, Custom unit skins will most likely be in nevertheless.

[[GR]Agm]

So we can have TEAM colors OVER custom colors, just like we ALREADY HAVE team colors over the silvery metallic texture. Ever thought of that?

Sorry, I misunderstood you then. I thought you were arguing to do away with team colors entirely and replace them with "natural" camouflage. I agree with you, some better base textures would be welcome. The C&C modding community actually has some INSANELY talented skinners who put EA's default textures to shame. No reason not to include good textures as long as team colors are still visible.

[Commander32]

Sorry, I misunderstood you then. I thought you were arguing to do away with team colors entirely and replace them with "natural" camouflage. I agree with you, some better base textures would be welcome. The C&C modding community actually has some INSANELY talented skinners who put EA's default textures to shame. No reason not to include good textures as long as team colors are still visible.

Same, the post is rather misleading, it would be great if you specify your points.

[Kodaemon.]

Team colours are one of the only consistent thing between all C&C games

Before Generals, so were MCVs or the sidebar.

[Commander32]

I'm fine with custom paint-jobs, nothing wrong with that.

Next time however, you need to point out all the factors in your post TJ-X.

It only confuses people into believing its something else.

[TJ-X]

I'm fine with custom paint-jobs, nothing wrong with that.

Next time however, you need to point out all the factors in your post TJ-X.

It only confuses people into believing its something else.

If you read my first post again, I never even once mentioned Team Colors. My complaint was about unrealistic Unit Textures. You were the one that brought up team colors.

[Commander32]

If you read my first post again, I never even once mentioned TEAM COLORS. My complaint was about unrealistic UNIT TEXTURES.

Ok I get it, now lets move on.

Anyway I am fine with the textures as they are, it helps bring the definition of the faction that unit belongs.

[Harrrr]

So we can have TEAM colors OVER custom colors, just like we ALREADY HAVE team colors over the silvery metallic texture. Ever thought of that?

It's not over...ok, well SAGE's team-color scheme was over as it was the blue channel in the specular map, which relied on mixing elmenents from the diffuse map so it wasn't just a sold green patch, and there was some natural variation.

Second, there's also it's going to have to be defined by a texture map some where and how intense it will be, and then another texture map for an overlay (scratches, dings, dents, weathering). You would need a final map with the actual camoflage texture, and since the mesh is laid out on the UV, and often rotated, fliped and contorted to fit in the UV square, you would have to have an actual invidually painted texture for each vehicle for each camo styling, as even if you used a fully-tileable texture, the difference in location of packing the UVs will easily cause a very noticable seam to form. Let me tell you this from personal experience, hand-painting camo on a texture and the little adjustments to get the camo to flow from UV seam to UV is very much a PITA....that that was just on one camo style per vehicle. If it was more than one (especially "digital camo"), I can't begin to express my sympathy to the texture artist responsible for them.

All the while, when you're adding texture maps, you are exponentially rising the draw calls for each mesh drawn (it's not the "polygon count" that can bog down modern engines, it's draw-calls). In an RTS games with as many units typically like a late-game CnC spam-fest, you adding way too many unnecessary draw-calls for something so...meaningless. It's way too much work for customized textures on the back-end and even in today's tech is borderline unnecessary to be spending that much resourcing on it. If you go the other way, and compress everything down to single diffuse textures, then you single-handedly trippling the physical size of the texture portion of the art. 1 32 bit TGA at 1K (I'm assuming that's what they're using) can climb over a few mbs in file-size space. When you have 40-50 units with each having 5 different camo choices, that means that you've added 400 extra mb of file-size space on top of everything else.

[Commander32]

It's not over...ok, well SAGE's team-color scheme was over as it was the blue channel in the specular map, which relied on mixing elmenents from the diffuse map so it wasn't just a sold green patch, and there was some natural variation.

Second, there's also it's going to have to be defined by a texture map some where and how intense it will be, and then another texture map for an overlay (scratches, dings, dents, weathering). You would need a final map with the actual camoflage texture, and since the mesh is laid out on the UV, and often rotated, fliped and contorted to fit in the UV square, you would have to have an actual invidually painted texture for each vehicle for each camo styling, as even if you used a fully-tileable texture, the difference in location of packing the UVs will easily cause a very noticable seam to form. Let me tell you this from personal experience, hand-painting camo on a texture and the little adjustments to get the camo to flow from UV seam to UV is very much a PITA.

All the while, when you're adding texture maps, you are exponentially rising the draw calls for each mesh drawn (it's not the "polygon count" that can bog down modern engines, it's draw-calls). In an RTS games with as many units typically like a late-game CnC spam-fest, you adding way too many unnecessary draw-calls for something so...meaningless. It's way too much work for customized textures on the back-end and even in today's tech is borderline unnecessary to be spending that much resourcing on it.

Indeed, I have some experience in this field as well, and let me tell you, its not easy work. Overall its not necessary for the game when there are more important factors to worry about..

[TJ-X]

It's not over...ok, well SAGE's team-color scheme was over as it was the blue channel in the specular map, which relied on mixing elmenents from the diffuse map so it wasn't just a sold green patch, and there was some natural variation.

Second, there's also it's going to have to be defined by a texture map some where and how intense it will be, and then another texture map for an overlay (scratches, dings, dents, weathering). You would need a final map with the actual camoflage texture, and since the mesh is laid out on the UV, and often rotated, fliped and contorted to fit in the UV square, you would have to have an actual invidually painted texture for each vehicle for each camo styling, as even if you used a fully-tileable texture, the UV. Let me tell you this from personal experience, hand-painting camo on a texture and the little adjustments to get the camo to flow from UV seam to UV is very much a PITA.

All the while, when you're adding texture maps, you are exponentially rising the draw calls for each mesh drawn (it's not the "polygon count" that can bog down modern engines, it's draw-calls). In an RTS games with as many units typically like a late-game CnC spam-fest, you adding way too many unnecessary draw-calls for something so...meaningless. It's way too much work for customized textures on the back-end and even in today's tech is borderline unnecessary to be spending that much resourcing on it.

Dude, this is already possible with Dawn of War 2. In that you can customize color PATTERNS for each unit types. I.E. you can choose two or more colors for camoflage/color patterns for your units. And yes, it's possible to have massive amounts of units at the same time in DoW2. We're talking about a game that has existed since 2009 here. Hell, this was also possible in Dawn of War 1 and that was back in 2004!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiV2dnCABWY&feature=fvst

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUsJvsR5yno&feature=fvst

[Commander32]

Right now we should put this on a lower priority for the time being, I am not against it but right now there are things we need to worry about more, like mod support and getting a map editor.

Than after that's done we can go ahead and add more paint-jobs.

[Harrrr]

Dude, this is already possible with Dawn of War 2. In that you can customize color PATTERNS for each unit types. I.E. you can choose two or more colors for camoflage/color patterns for your units. And yes, it's possible to have massive amounts of units at the same time in DoW2. We're talking about a game that has existed since 2009 here. Hell, this was also possible in Dawn of War 1 and that was back in 2004!

Dow 2 is invariably lower unit count and draw call than your typical CnC game given it's emphasis on the infantry squad. with only 1 decal and very few choices.

DOW 2 is also using decals for the changes which is also a lot less expensive, but naturally inhbititve in what you're trying to do.

[Commander32]

Dow 2 is invariably lower unit count and draw call than your typical CnC game given it's emphasis on the infantry squad. with only 1 decal and very few choices.

And I still bet it was hard for em Devs right...?

[TJ-X]

Right now we should put this on a lower priority for the time being, I am not against it but right now there are things we need to worry about more, like mod support and getting a map editor.

Meh, I just don't want to see EU or US tanks that look like they came out of the factory without a paint job.

[Commander32]

Meh, I just don't want to see EU or US tanks that look like they came out of the factory without a paint job.

W8 till the DLC content rolls in, then you can find awesome skins there...

[Harrrr]

Dude, this is already possible with Dawn of War 2. In that you can customize color PATTERNS for each unit types. I.E. you can choose two or more colors for camoflage/color patterns for your units. And yes, it's possible to have massive amounts of units at the same time in DoW2. We're talking about a game that has existed since 2009 here. Hell, this was also possible in Dawn of War 1 and that was back in 2004!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiV2dnCABWY&feature=fvst

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUsJvsR5yno&feature=fvst

Colors is one thing, as all you need is a control map, but actuall patterns which neither of your videos showed (NOT DECALS) is a whole other story with UV-unwrapped meshes.

I'm telling you. I know the process the use...it's not hard to deduce, as I essentially explained an approxomite methodology.


And I still bet it was hard for em Devs right...?

It's not hard at all, especially when you limit to a certain pre-existing colors (which can be defined and altered on the fly as it's an RGB change), but when you add camo styles (not colors) to the mix you invarable have to have a deeper shader process with includes more and more maps that skyrockets the draw-calls.

[TJ-X]

Colors is one thing, as all you need is a control map, but actuall patterns which neither of your videos showed (NOT DECALS) is a whole other story with UV-unwrapped meshes.

I said you could customize colors for patterns, not MAKE your own patterns. Ofcourse I know that would be difficult. But I don't think Generals 2 should necessisarly go this far with customization. Just choose from different pre-made camoflage/color texture paint on all your units in the same way you can choose from different camo/color schemes for your soldier classes in BF3.

[Commander32]

Thanks for the Pointers Harrr, maybe you should explain more in depth about UV mapping and wrapping meshes. Would help IMO.

I know a good deal on how hard it is to actually UV map and wrap the whole mesh, especially when there are complex high polygon models being used.

[Harrrr]

I said you could customize colors for patterns, not MAKE your own patterns. Ofcourse I know that would be difficult. But I don't think Generals 2 should necessisarly go this far with customization. Just choose from different pre-made camoflage/color texture paint on all your units in the same way you can choose from different camo/color schemes for your soldier classes in BF3.

I never said make your own patterns either, but since each styling of camo HAS it's own pattern (ie: a woodland camo is different styling than urban, which is different than digital which is different from the 1991 and 2003 Iraq campaign camo), you would invarabily have to change the nature of the interactions between the colors and not just the color themsevles. Also, the more colors you add the more separate maps you need to define in hue customization.


Thanks for the Pointers Harrr, maybe you should explain more in depth about UV mapping and wrapping meshes. Would help IMO.

I know a good deal on how hard it is to actually UV map and wrap the whole mesh, especially when there are complex high polygon models being used.

It's not "hard" to unrwap. Just time consuming. The hard part is how you want to break up the blocks so whomever is texturing it can make sense of it. That's why the positioning of the seams is so important, especially if you want to do flowy things like camo all over the mesh and have it smooth. Hand painting camo on a texture is really, the worst, as I constantly go back and for from Photoshop to my 3d package, and adjust to numerous times until it flows from one seam to the next. It's not hard....just time consuming.

[Commander32]

I don't think he can comprehend your graphical art lingo Harrr. :P
But yeah, there really is no simple answer to this.