Walls

[Nervmich]

Subject:
Give some walls (sand bag, fences, strong wall) to the game

Description:
Walls were used in many C&C games. First walls had the problem that you had to bulid one by one and it took so much time. Last games like RA 3 walls very in my opinion too expensive so the most just set them up to cover harvesters.

However there are already threads about walls but not in the subforum. So i want to have the discussion here too. Althought generals worked even without walls well - i can imagine generals 2 would become much better with walls.

Positive Effect:
Wall protect weak buildings and harvesters and force an enemy army to take another way when covered by strong defence. Otherwise it tooks at least some seconds to destroy walls. This effect is like in real war the most important thing because it gives the defender time to move his army in a better combat position

Negative Effect:
If price is too high its useless
If it looks like some "super big walls" like in C&C Tib Wars (Stuttgart map g.e.) it wont give the combat feeling of a combat situation in 2030.

[CnC_Fin]

Definetly walls, but I wonder how it would work with dozer/worker system. But I think that EU could have some classic concrete walls with some sandbags, GLA burning barriage as in Generals, and the third faction perhaps some tank barriers with barbed wire.

[hellodean]

should dozers have the ability to break down enemy walls?

[sgfan206]

WAAAAALLZ!!!!

Oh yeah!!

Desperately need wallz!

No wallz no fun!

About how to implement walls - modders can do it, so official game-developers should be able to do so, too ... I guess.

[Golan2781]

IMO the important thing is to find a way how to add walls. They aren't exactly made for freeform placement or dozers. Freeform works extremely bad as seen in TW, the hubs are difficult to use precisely and replacing lost segments is almost impossible. A dozer system should have walls constructed segment after segment for consistency, but that takes ages.

[hellodean]

age of mythology did a good job of walls that dont have to be in a grid system

http://piceye.net/pictures/far/Age_Of_Mythology-3.jpg

[Namechanged]

And Age of Empires 3 as well.

[hellodean]

i havnt played it but i thought i heard aoe 3 didnt have buildable walls

[stephanovich]

No AoE had walls. You had a limit of 7 ( I think) towers though.

[sgfan206]

No AoE had walls. You had a limit of 7 ( I think) towers though.

Limit of towers?!

Wanna kiddin me??!

Limits in AoE beside of population cap?! NO WAY!

And again I say AoE 2 TQE is still the best of all.

[stephanovich]

Aoe 2 TQE <3 indeed.

[RedShocktrooper]

Same with Empire Earth (well, 2 at least. Can't find a copy of 1), what with players simply putting down the hubs and then branching them off.

[sgfan206]

Same with Empire Earth (well, 2 at least. Can't find a copy of 1), what with players simply putting down the hubs and then branching them off.

Empire Earth II ?!

No offense, but I really didn't like that game. Empire Earth I was the best IMHO. Much better gameplay - and even the graphics were better. Comparing EE I with EE II is like comparing TW with TT.

Talking about TW:

I find the system to build walls in TW really good. For me, there were never any problems. A little bit confusing with the building borders because of limited range, but well, outposts were the answer.

Of course, there's the question how the system should look like in Generals 2. But I'd stick to AoE standards in that case. Fast builded, cheap, and strong. OK, not THAT strong, but strong enough to protect defenses behind it. Just like in TW.

[RedShocktrooper]

Empire Earth II ?!

No offense, but I really didn't like that game. Empire Earth I was the best IMHO. Much better gameplay - and even the graphics were better. Comparing EE I with EE II is like comparing TW with TT.

Well, I can't compare the two myself on the grounds of having never played Empire Earth I - though I prefer Empires: Dawn of the Modern World over EEII.


Talking about TW:

I find the system to build walls in TW really good. For me, there were never any problems. A little bit confusing with the building borders because of limited range, but well, outposts were the answer.

Of course, there's the question how the system should look like in Generals 2. But I'd stick to AoE standards in that case. Fast builded, cheap, and strong. OK, not THAT strong, but strong enough to protect defenses behind it. Just like in TW.

So some basic sandbag walls were certain units (tanks and etc) can fire and drive over it, while others (technicals and infantry) have to go around? Sounds fair.

Alternatively a fairly strong wall which can't be crushed or fired over unless Artillery rolls up.

[Wizeacre621]

I think we got walls guys, In another topic I pointed out why...cant find it now
Like basically if you look at the trailer, then when it zooms out look to the top right edge of the base, one of the towers has a large rectangular gap thing for a placement of another wall...thats just me speculating but hey..."I CAN DREAM HAROLD!"

[=LEVIATHEN=]

Well, in the Generals 2 teaser and photos, it shows that the EU indeed has at least one wall type:

http://www.gameshadow.com/patches/ccgenerals2/images/gen/ccgenerals2_s2_thumb_616x462.jpg

How it may work may be similar to how it was in BfME II, where your construction worker set up a wall hub, and the wall could expand on it's own. Also, the method used in AoE could work too.

I would also like it if we were able to set up sandbags and wire fences.

[hellodean]

Empire Earth II ?!

No offense, but I really didn't like that game. Empire Earth I was the best IMHO. Much better gameplay - and even the graphics were better. Comparing EE I with EE II is like comparing TW with TT.

Talking about TW:

I find the system to build walls in TW really good. For me, there were never any problems. A little bit confusing with the building borders because of limited range, but well, outposts were the answer.

Of course, there's the question how the system should look like in Generals 2. But I'd stick to AoE standards in that case. Fast builded, cheap, and strong. OK, not THAT strong, but strong enough to protect defenses behind it. Just like in TW.

indeed, ee2 was a big disappointment for me, but 3 was even worse

also i preferred age of mythology to age of empires 2 (damn i wish theyd make a AoM 2)

[Wizeacre621]

Anyone else notice the weird black and yellow catwalk thing? By the bottom crane? You think that's just part of the map or some sort of wall upgrade?

[hellodean]

Anyone else notice the weird black and yellow catwalk thing? By the bottom crane? You think that's just part of the map or some sort of wall upgrade?

yeah when the pic was first revealed i suggested you could build gangways next to wall for troops to fire over the top, i dont seem to think anyone agreed with me on it tho

[Wizeacre621]

Oh yeah I remember that thread! I'd like to see that as a sort of upgrade for the walls so they,re not completely defenseless barriers

[sgfan206]

indeed, ee2 was a big disappointment for me, but 3 was even worse

Is it just me, or are the newer games getting worse and worse?!

The only examples of games getting better in time are C&C (at least until C&C 3), Dune, Homeworld (Where the f*** is Homeworld 3??!!), Ground Control, AoE (until 2 TQE), Freelancer (yeah, StarLancer was predecessor) and Earth 2140, 2150 (2160 was alright too).

And what about RTS?! RTS is dead - except Generals 2. And Anno 2070, maybe. But afar from that? No RTS whatsoever.

*sigh* I guess the good old times are over. Hopefully G2 will bring up a new age of RTS. Well, just wait and see. And hopefully a return of walls AND gates!

[IonorRea]

There can be walls as option in custom game (like SW) or campaign but i don't want them as much in classic MP.

Walls will made classic GLA hit&run rushes with Technicals & RPG troops hardly possible and in later part of game can remove need for base defense but using walls with backup base army instead.
So you wall yourself and if wall be attacked his demolition give you enough time to regroup your army for protecting base.
Also due system of dozers there is no sense in walling Command Centers agains commandos. If walls will be on other hand expensive only useful place will be protecting gathering units, this decrease chances for succesful economy harrasment so i don't see walls as big asset for gameplay.

For some defensive modes and custom game in MP why not, otherwise in classic MP no.

[Wizeacre621]

That's kinda the point of walls...to prevent being harassed, plus I don't think we'll get gates if we get walls, so technical rushes will still be possible, unless they completely box themselves in...but I think that's kinda stupid, just wasting resources and your preventing yourself from expanding...

[hellodean]

Is it just me, or are the newer games getting worse and worse?!

The only examples of games getting better in time are C&C (at least until C&C 3), Dune, Homeworld (Where the f*** is Homeworld 3??!!), Ground Control, AoE (until 2 TQE), Freelancer (yeah, StarLancer was predecessor) and Earth 2140, 2150 (2160 was alright too).

And what about RTS?! RTS is dead - except Generals 2. And Anno 2070, maybe. But afar from that? No RTS whatsoever.

*sigh* I guess the good old times are over. Hopefully G2 will bring up a new age of RTS. Well, just wait and see. And hopefully a return of walls AND gates!

id say each franchise has its ups and downs, for every one that has a lull, there is one that beats its predecessor

back on topic
also walls wont be invincible so you just bring something along to make an new entrance for your self and your rush tactics are still fine.

[IonorRea]

On maps like Turnament Desert it didn't require much walls to protect yourself with walling 3 tight enterances (left,center,right) and in time you destroy wall segment and approach to base enemy has given enough time to regroup and hide gathering units.
Many maps in Generals include tight enterances due hills or city building so i don't think this is really good idea for competetive MP if you want such envieroments in MP maps. For custom game it's plausible as you can try new possibilities and balance isn't as priority as fun.

http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/1107/tourndesert.jpg

As you see this map with wall also give wide strategical advantage for side with longest shooting artilery (in this case Tomahawk + search&destroy) agains GLA, i think you already see possibilities with hidding artilery formations behind walls, protected with choppers, snipers and avengers...

[=LEVIATHEN=]

Is it just me, or are the newer games getting worse and worse?!

The only examples of games getting better in time are C&C (at least until C&C 3), Dune, Homeworld (Where the f*** is Homeworld 3??!!), Ground Control, AoE (until 2 TQE), Freelancer (yeah, StarLancer was predecessor) and Earth 2140, 2150 (2160 was alright too).

And what about RTS?! RTS is dead - except Generals 2. And Anno 2070, maybe. But afar from that? No RTS whatsoever.

*sigh* I guess the good old times are over. Hopefully G2 will bring up a new age of RTS. Well, just wait and see. And hopefully a return of walls AND gates!

RED: Careful, buddy; that's among my most favorites.

ORANGE: That would include Age of Mythology and it's expansion pack, right? That game was by far one of the best games that I've played.

BLUE: Well, other than WiC, I guess that you can consider that true. Thank god EA and Petroglyph are keeping it up.

I agree with hellodean; each studio, publisher, and series can and has done well or poorly over the years. It isn't like the quality of video games steadily decreases over time. Keep in mind that people have been releasing shitty video games ever since they were created.


Anyone else notice the weird black and yellow catwalk thing? By the bottom crane? You think that's just part of the map or some sort of wall upgrade?

Now that you've pointed it out, yes I do. Maybe that's something that gets automatically laid down when two wall hubs are close enough together, or maybe it's a gate, like in Tiberian Sun.

[sgfan206]

RED: Careful, buddy; that's among my most favorites.

INCLUDING C&C 3, of course!! http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/mosking.gif


ORANGE: That would include Age of Mythology and it's expansion pack, right? That game was by far one of the best games that I've played.

AFAIK AoM isn't part of AoE, just more like a spinoff. However, I cannot rate this game, as I never played it.


BLUE: Well, other than WiC, I guess that you can consider that true. Thank god EA and Petroglyph are keeping it up.

AND, not to forget: The countless modders out there!!! http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/good2.gif

[=LEVIATHEN=]

INCLUDING C&C 3, of course!! http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/mosking.gif
Ah, that's better.
I think RA3 was good too, but I can see why many didn't like it.


AFAIK AoM isn't part of AoE, just more like a spinoff. However, I cannot rate this game, as I never played it.
Buy it whenever you can, along with it's expansion pack, called The Titans. I thought it was by the same company...
Well, at any rate, I still think it is very fun.


AND, not to forget: The countless modders out there!!! http://www.kolobok.us/smiles/standart/good2.gif
Hurrah for the modders!