Idea for the next C&C

[mastodon]

My idea is that you can pick a unit out of 2 or 3 potential units for each "function" (fe light scout)... each with a different strength or weaknes BEFORE you start the game.
being a tiberium universe guy, I have worked the idea out for some GDI units;

Light scout
Pitbull (anti vehicle/aircraft missiles)
Bulldog (anti infantry/aircraft MG)
ambulance ( infantry healing ability (infantry garrisons, but can't fire)

APC
minesweeper (lays mines without cost and can remove them without damaging itself, can;t shoot but infantry garissoned inside can)
MG (light MG turret vs infantry and aircraft (TW version))
repair (Repair drone hub (like KW Steel Talons version)

MBT
Titan (highest damage, average armour, lowest speed)
Predator (highest armout, average speed, lowest firepower)
Hunter (Highest speed, average firepower, lowest armour)

those are just EXAMPLES to make my point clear, please give feedback on the idea, and not on the examples.

[Zaptagious]

So... Subfactions? :rolleyes:

[mastodon]

@zaptagious nah, you pick them before you start, this allows players to make slight differences in their arsenal, and to mix them, each option should get it's own weaknesses and strengths... giving you fe a very strong bulky, and slow vehicular force and a light and fast airforce

[MarkedofDave]

that idea reminds me of the subfactions and that is what i liked the most in Kanes wrath. Im infact huge fan of the subfactions in KW cause not only they also have role of the story + origns but also have their own logo, their own style of units that suits their technoligy they are focus on.

its something like this as the 3 gdi and 3 Nod factions main battle tanks as teir 1

GDI: Predator Tank strongest armour, medium speed & weak damage
ST: TITAN Strongest damage, medium armour & slow speed
ZOCOM: Hunter Fastest speed, medium damage & weak armour

Nod: Scorpion tank fastest speed, medium damage & weakest armour
BH: Avenger Tank strongest damage, medium armour & Slow speed
MOK: Centiron strongest armour, medium speed & weakest damage

I would love the Steel Talons, MarkedofKane and Traveler-59 return in the next Tiberian C&C game

[mastodon]

that idea reminds me of the subfactions and that is what i liked the most in Kanes wrath. Im infact huge fan of the subfactions in KW cause not only they also have role of the story + origns but also have their own logo, their own style of units that suits their technoligy they are focus on.

its something like this as the 3 gdi and 3 Nod factions main battle tanks as teir 1

GDI: Predator Tank
ST: TITAN
ZOCOM: Hunter

Nod: Scorpion tank
BH: Avenger Tank
MOK: Centiron

The idea goes further than pre-arranged sub-factions, it would allow you to make your very own subfaction!
I would like this to go as far as structures and support powers, for example 3 different tech centres with different upgrades and picking your X amount of support powers from a much larger pool

Edit: beter yet allow players to pick upgrades themselves from a large pool to 3 per tech centre

[Heron]

It must be extremely well balanced then, because otherwise you get a RTS version of M:TG without the luck element.

I do think prebuilt factions are the way to go as it is relatively easier for the devs to balance. I did however have an idea in another thread that we can go countries RA1 style, with differences to each country's base value of doing things, and use a different model for each country to reflect that change.

[mastodon]

It must be extremely well balanced then, because otherwise you get a RTS version of M:TG without the luck element.

As each option would have it´s signature weakness I think they will be quite easy to balance, besides I think C&C could go with a lot more adabtability such as options to set max tech, toggle superweapons and even a moveable bar (Bottom or side)

[PizzaAtomica]

I really like the idea of picking your own 'sub'-unit for each category, the only problem I see is if you're going to have to do it before each match, it's gonna take a hell of a lot of time before you actually get matches started. :p
That could be solved though if you can save your own preferences, so you could simply make a few of your own subfactions, save them and simply choose from those whenever you're starting a match instead of choosing each unit individually.

[Heron]

As each option would have it´s signature weakness I think they will be quite easy to balance, besides I think C&C could go with a lot more adabtability such as options to set max tech, toggle superweapons and even a moveable bar (Bottom or side)

You would be right there. Well, why not combine the 2? Have prebuilt factions, and customizable factions. Best of both worlds.

[Klandri]

This idea is nice. And I agree with Heron.

[mastodon]

I really like the idea of picking your own 'sub'-unit for each category, the only problem I see is if you're going to have to do it before each match, it's gonna take a hell of a lot of time before you actually get matches started. :p
That could be solved though if you can save your own preferences, so you could simply make a few of your own subfactions, save them and simply choose from those whenever you're starting a match instead of choosing each unit individually. You're right, you should have an option to save your "factions

[vhu9644]

how about, we have prebuilt factions, and we can modify an existing unit to have applicable features. the more features/benefits, however, it raises in tier and cost. then we can input that unit into a customizable faction for your style. you would make your own faction, and preload it into a online database. then you can use it for play.
so like, you have nod stealth tank, you have
tib missile upgrade
tib missile
large missle payload
large missile relase
speed increase

and so on, you can add and subtract, but you change its tier and cost, so you can make a t4 uber stealth tank, or a t1 inexpensive stealth tank.

also, you have customizable buildings. turrets, and you have like 3-5 types of units/structures/turrets per area, so like for aa turret for gdi, you can have
aa cannon
rockets
flak (maybe)
drones (maybe)

or for nod power:
tib core
regular nod
tib radiation collector
tib detonation reactor (idk, ,aybe like fusion/fission?)

and each one is modifiable


idk about this though, could be very taxing on EA/VG's servers and computer data

[Raos]

If they took time and effort it could be a very good idea I approve.

[Filipoo]

What about doing it like in Earth 2160? ....you can research platform, and then you can add on the platform different types of weapons\engines\armors. This would force player to do a lot of recon to find out what technology does the opponent has, and then make necessary adaptions to gain balance\ or even advantage on the battlefield. This would allow to make player's own subfaction.

So the example would be:
you will research pitbull platform,then you'd have a choice of different armors, like classic armor\energy armor\chemical armor,etc.
then you would choose engine, normal engine[cheapest one] ,fast engine, powerfull engine
and in the end you would choose a weapon, like mg, missile launcher, mortar,railgun, or ability to turn pitbull into ambulance, etc.

Peace!
GDI rules! :D

in Earth you also could add shield or repair drone , both of those were optional though.... it always depended on how much research you've done...

[Heron]

What about doing it like in Earth 2160? ....you can research platform, and then you can add on the platform different types of weapons\engines\armors. This would force player to do a lot of recon to find out what technology does the opponent has, and then make necessary adaptions to gain balance\ or even advantage on the battlefield. This would allow to make player's own subfaction.

So the example would be:
you will research pitbull platform,then you'd have a choice of different armors, like classic armor\energy armor\chemical armor,etc.
then you would choose engine, normal engine[cheapest one] ,fast engine, powerfull engine
and in the end you would choose a weapon, like mg, missile launcher, mortar,railgun, or ability to turn pitbull into ambulance, etc.

Peace!
GDI rules! :D

in Earth you also could add shield or repair drone , both of those were optional though.... it always depended on how much research you've done...

It sounds like deck building in a M:TG tbh. Hmmm...the thing is, would you want it to apply to MP? Or will it be SC2-ish with some upgrades you can purchase?

[mastodon]

@HERON I don't know which game you are talking about. But, as I had pictured it, this would be an option in the main menu, were you can select units/upgrades/support powers out of a larger "pool". You then save your choices and use them in MP or SP.

[Heron]

Magic the Gathering. It feels like it for some reason. You create the army from the pool, like how you create a deck from the cardpool.

I must add that this does mean more work for the devs, and as we have seen from ZH and KW, even prebuilt factions, with weaknesses and strengths in them, don't usually come out the way we want them to work, and take a lot of effort to balance. Not that I am against this kind of customization, but MP balancing must be taken into account...

A good way to overcome the MP balancing is for this 'choice' to be strictly an unranked system, or a ranked system by itself, with prebuilt factions having another ladder, as I foresee balancing issues like the ones facing M:TG devs. Or even Battleforge devs too.

[Filipoo]

It sounds like deck building in a M:TG tbh. Hmmm...the thing is, would you want it to apply to MP? Or will it be SC2-ish with some upgrades you can purchase?

I haven't played that one, and I haven't played SC2 also, last time I've played any game was back in last august, ... I'd recommend to try Earth 2160 [what is ,in my opinion,a great game]. there, you have research tree,where you can research vehicle platforms, weapons,armors, engines,shields,utility stuff,etc... and then you have building manager, where you can apply new technologies,

building manager: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://img.brothersoft.com/screenshots/softimage/e/earth_2160-299359-1256699386.jpeg&imgrefurl=http://www.brothersoft.com/games/earth-2160.html&usg=__JU0PyUIxdAirwwHX8U9yipoBEg4=&h=524&w=791&sz=115&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=AcBX2JKIHUvY2M:&tbnh=130&tbnw=196&ei=UqaPTZecLJTpgQfPxfW-DQ&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dearth%2B2160%2Bunit%2Bbuilding%26hl%3 Den%26biw%3D1675%26bih%3D818%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disc h:1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=328&oei=UqaPTZecLJTpgQfPxfW-DQ&page=1&ndsp=28&ved=1t:429,r:26,s:0&tx=84&ty=80
research tree: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://image.gamespotcdn.net/gamespot/images/2005/278/reviews/541992_20051006_embed003.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/earth2160/news.html%3Fsid%3D6135199&usg=__q1iE0_ifY3d_s3Js4Gvds1r_xV4=&h=135&w=180&sz=8&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=lu4asmeV7WAHqM:&tbnh=108&tbnw=144&ei=sKWPTY3uHMPYgQeRvti3DQ&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dearth%2B2160%2Bresearch%2Btree%26hl%3 Den%26biw%3D1675%26bih%3D818%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disc h:1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=265&oei=sKWPTY3uHMPYgQeRvti3DQ&page=1&ndsp=28&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0&tx=84&ty=20
,hope that explains
Peace!

[Filipoo]

I think this video explains everything : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB8NJwk-DB0

[Zaptagious]

I think this video explains everything : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB8NJwk-DB0

I only played Earth 2150 and a little 2140 but that game looks interesting.

[Bobug]

ive been saying this for ages, its a great idea :D

[Filipoo]

you might not like it, I've heard that 2160 is catastrophe in comparison to 2150, but I can't tell ,I haven't played 2150...

[Golan2781]

2160 plays out a lot more action'y compared to 2150, which at times was more like a GUI for an RTS function set. It's still kinda technical though and feels a bit too complicated at times. Personally, I prefer 2150, if a game gets as technical as the E-series, then that's something you can't mask, so its better to got with it than pretending to be cool and shiny.

[Heron]

Hmmm...the thing here is this, seeing I have no experience with the Earth series. Is it balanced in MP?

This is the factor in competitive MP. I don't mind such customization in SP since it is SP and SC2 ran away with the SP doesn't need to be balanced idea, so such functions can be done. Heck, I will go as far as to say that casual MP should have this mode too...but ranked games, among others?

[Commander_McNash]

The main problem with Earth 2160 was that it had too many options which were more about statistics than real units skills, in that sense it got a bit boring after a while.

[ArcaneDelta]

the way you could alleviate the balance issues would be with a 'budget' or points system. where every unit, structure, power or ability would cost a certain amount of points and at the same time make some other options greyed out as soon as selected. eg, humvee and wolverine. if you choose the humvee you get faster with avg damage with less armour whereas with the wolverine you will have avg speed with avg armour and avg damage. the humvee would cost say 400 of your budget to put into the faction and the wolverine would be greyed out so it could not be selected. with the opposite effect if you chose the wolverine but with a different point cost.

[Heron]

the way you could alleviate the balance issues would be with a 'budget' or points system. where every unit, structure, power or ability would cost a certain amount of points and at the same time make some other options greyed out as soon as selected. eg, humvee and wolverine. if you choose the humvee you get faster with avg damage with less armour whereas with the wolverine you will have avg speed with avg armour and avg damage. the humvee would cost say 400 of your budget to put into the faction and the wolverine would be greyed out so it could not be selected. with the opposite effect if you chose the wolverine but with a different point cost.

The points function is one thing, but it doesn't take away the fact that the balance is hard, especially when you include micro and all the other stuff, because it is a RTS...

I am not discouraging it though, but let's not forget how difficult balancing really is.

[mastodon]

The points function is one thing, but it doesn't take away the fact that the balance is hard, especially when you include micro and all the other stuff, because it is a RTS...

I am not discouraging it though, but let's not forget how difficult balancing really is.

Balancing is hard indeed, that's why they should take the time to do it right, and ask the community for ideas

[Heron]

Balancing is hard indeed, that's why they should take the time to do it right, and ask the community for ideas

Thank you.

I do think that customization could be done, but in addition to that, a whole customization league/ladder should be out there. Alongside prebuilt/base faction ladders, essentially becoming a different game option that can add in more fun, because you take the time to prepare your forces and to try and build a strong army based on the 'points' system.

So the points system balancing will take a lot of tuning, but the balance for fixed factions will not be affected by the customization league. A win-win scenario, depending on how VG can finetune the system, of course.

[vhu9644]

or how about:
you have a budget for each tech level, and you would choose units for you tech level. also, you can increase aspects of a unit (like speed/attack) for added cost. then you can save it, and it will be sent to EA servers, which record it with your online id (for mp)
thus, you can have varying strenghts and ammounts of units/tech level.

also, do you think it would be applicable to structures? or base defenses?
like, some base defenses have more range, reload rate, attack power, and extras (like sonic emitter's sonic is an extra)
or some power plants have more defense, better power upgrades, more armor?

[easimon1812]

I like the idea of customizable sub factions, but would I want the selection and options to be more robust than KW, KW subfactions feel like the Mcdonald's dollar menu, in other words just very pathetic version of the main factions, it should not be like that.
want to learn about fubfactions? check out Generals mod Shockwave and Contra. each subfaction doesnt simply have less than the other they just compensate in some other way, the infantry chinese generals had weak tanks and planes (weak but still there) but compensated with variety and some what OP infantry, morter infantry, flamethrowers, antitank infatry, heavy machinegunner infantry , infantry that could plant mines and what not, there were officer that provided buff to units nearby and their transports were tough, fast and could load a great number of infantry units.

ZH Contra mod


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7VZD4Jt4Ns&feature=fvsr

Shockwave mod


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p8POaY3B9I&feature=related


but honestly I would download the mods because no video will make justice to all the stuff these mods have.

[mastodon]

or how about:
you have a budget for each tech level, and you would choose units for you tech level. also, you can increase aspects of a unit (like speed/attack) for added cost. then you can save it, and it will be sent to EA servers, which record it with your online id (for mp)
thus, you can have varying strenghts and ammounts of units/tech level.

also, do you think it would be applicable to structures? or base defenses?
like, some base defenses have more range, reload rate, attack power, and extras (like sonic emitter's sonic is an extra)
or some power plants have more defense, better power upgrades, more armor?


Are you implying this should be unlocked gradually like in T_T?

[easimon1812]

the next C&C (whatever the universe) should made of the sea a battlefield too, I lked RA3's ability to build structures on water, I would like to see that feature make a comeback.

gigantic maps a la supreme commander.

gameplay not so fast passed, RA3 was too fast, cant say about C&CTT because I only played the beta, but right now SC2 has become quite fast passed and it isnt very fun, I would like to see the next C&C to slow down just a little, seriously guys its like somebody knocks at the door or the phone rings and once you are back half of your base is gone and your allies are barely hanging in there, just too unforgiving.

[Raos]

^ No they don't need to be any slower.

[Klandri]

gameplay not so fast passed, RA3 was too fast, cant say about C&CTT because I only played the beta, but right now SC2 has become quite fast passed and it isnt very fun, I would like to see the next C&C to slow down just a little, seriously guys its like somebody knocks at the door or the phone rings and once you are back half of your base is gone and your allies are barely hanging in there, just too unforgiving.


Whoa, whoa, whoa! RA3 was way too slow, the speed 6 limit from RA2 and Tib sun should be included and ranked games should be the fastest Generals speed. But that's maybe just my opinion.

Edit: SC2's speed is ok but the game itself is just vastly inferior to CnC.

[Kyang]

The Generals mod "Boss Generals" was a good take on the idea of faction customization.

[mastodon]

The Generals mod "Boss Generals" was a good take on the idea of faction customization.

could you give me a link?

[Kyang]

could you give me a link?

Yeah, I'm scouring for a link to the mod itself.

It even had it's own site. I was looking for a link to it, but it looks like the site has been taken down.

Please stand by.

[Kyang]

The basic idea behind it was that after choosing a main faction, the player would then have different battle plans to choose from in the match itself. Each plan would specialize their army in a specific way. The improvements ranged from better infantry to better technology, or improved veterancy. As the match progressed, the player would earn their Generals points as expected. But instead of just Generals powers, they would be able to unlock more units related to their chosen battle plan. The idea was that the match wouldn't be decided from the start just because someone chose a superior sub faction.

The obvious pitfall though is that there's still the possibility of unbalanced battle plans and dead-end specialization trees, but I think it's still better than playing subfaction roulette in the pre-game lobby.

Here's a link to some screen shots: http://www.cnchq.de/index.php?content=downloads&dl_id=780
Link to the mod itself: http://planetcnc.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Generals.Detail&id=544

There were three updates, so I don't know if that's the more up to date version though.

[Luke_Danger]

The main problem I see with customizing your own "subfaction" is that you could put the strongest of every unit; balance is going to be hell unless making a faction of all the 'best' units comes with a penalty, probably in unit cost (representing the difficulty of you maintaining all those high-powered units), or you have a limited number of "Command Points" to spend on the units, every commander getting the same, with better units for your arsenal coming at a higher cost than lower tech ones; which opens another area: You can use a large number of basic but reliable technology units that are diverse and outnumber the powerhouses/abuse weaknesses with diversity.

[Kyang]

or you have a limited number of "Command Points" to spend on the units, every commander getting the same, with better units for your arsenal coming at a higher cost than lower tech ones; which opens another area: You can use a large number of basic but reliable technology units that are diverse and outnumber the powerhouses/abuse weaknesses with diversity.

This is what Boss Generals strove to do. It even uses your Command points suggestion. The mod was too short lived though, and I didn't play it enough to know if it succeeded, but the thinking is sound.