Who's in charge of picking unit design?

[Garbarsardar]

Seriously, what's up with that? C&C3, RA3 and C&C4 (even if you choose to ignore it) suffer from the same fugly units syndrome. Why the hell is it that other games by EA come out with neat-looking, original designs, but the most the C&C team managed to do was rip off some obscure C&C concept art in some vain attempt to pander to C&C fans? Oh, but they overlooked two problems: (1) most of the concept art they ripped off of wasn't even Westwood's and (2) even if it were it doesn't make it any less ugly nor does it mean it would've been implemented into the game, hence why it's called concept art!

And the kicker? We know that the team is (was?) capable of coming up with cool concepts, because we've seen some of their art. But hell no, put all the good stuff through the shredder because we're too lazy/it's too expensive/we've no time to model it and put it into the game. What a waste.

[Kyang]

Unit readability was cited very often as a reason for some of their design choices. If your response is that it's not difficult to identify units, their abilities or upgrades without square black barrels (TW Railguns.), or green bubble helmets (TW Nod Engineer.), you're not the first.

To get a better read on where you stand with unit design, can you cite your list of the biggest offenders in TW, RA3, and TT? I thought some of them were pretty nice.

[Harrrr]

Which concept art that they ripped off of wasn't Westwood's? Got links?

[Zocom7]

I highly doubt it's Sam Bass, since he was the leading art designer of some recent C&C games.

[Klandri]

I think most were very nice and that is probably the thing I think is least repulsive about T_T. There are horrible unit designs there, Nod scorpion tank :O, but there are some nice ones, most notably the Kodiak.


Unit readability was cited very often as a reason for some of their design choices. If your response is that it's not difficult to identify units, their abilities or upgrades without square black barrels (TW Railguns.), or green bubble helmets (TW Nod Engineer.), you're not the first.

To get a better read on where you stand with unit design, can you cite your list of the biggest offenders in TW, RA3, and TT? I thought some of them were pretty nice.

I found the un-upgraded mammoth tank to be ugly as **** but the upgraded one to be pretty cool. Am I the only one?

[Kyang]

I think most were very nice and that is probably the thing I think is least repulsive about T_T. There are horrible unit designs there, Nod scorpion tank :O, but there are some nice ones, most notably the Kodiak.

I found the un-upgraded mammoth tank to be ugly as **** but the upgraded one to be pretty cool. Am I the only one?

Of course you're not the only one. I really didn't like the look of the railgun upgrade.

[Golan2781]

TW was quite okay actually, it was KW that really started the ridiculous units with the Titan and Wolverine being toy'ish to the extreme and the Epics over the top. Gen/ZH was a similar case. If you look at the designs, the main games usually feature a gamy representation of serious designs, whereas the expansions expand on the actual gamy ingame look and thus are much less serious (compare the Crusader to the Laser Crusader for example).
RA3 was a different case, featuring ridiculous designs but actually high-quality models.

[Noodlesocks]

TW was quite okay actually, it was KW that really started the ridiculous units with the Titan and Wolverine being toy'ish to the extreme and the Epics over the top. Gen/ZH was a similar case. If you look at the designs, the main games usually feature a gamy representation of serious designs, whereas the expansions expand on the actual gamy ingame look and thus are much less serious (compare the Crusader to the Laser Crusader for example).
RA3 was a different case, featuring ridiculous designs but actually high-quality models.

The titan and wolverine were some of my favourites from KW and I personally think EAs wolverine looked better than westwoods walking box model.

But yea, I hope they take more care with unit designs in the future to avoid exaggeration and bubble units. Making things look big and cartoony isn't going to attract new players. It's just going to make them laugh and walk away.

[RealWar]

I liked the KW Wolverine and Titan, and dare I say I liked C&C4's Titan (especially when it got the dual rail guns). But yeah, alot of C&C4's unit designs were terrible. I liked RA3 designs, but some were not that practical looking (even for Red Alert) and there was a lack of concept art and concept art quality. DUDE. I want the next C&C's collector's edition to come with a decent sized book of concept art (And amazing quality concept art, too). Anyways, reminder to the devs: Readability, Practicality, and (I couldn't think of a word for this, but make each unit design be special. That way, years later, we'll have a whole bunch of nostalgic moments about those units). I want the unit designs to be so memorable that I never forget them!

[Commander_McNash]

The only thing VG need to get good units it' just add below every unit design profile a small note advising "Do it as awesome and realistic as posible or you will get fired without any monetary compensation". That will inspire the team to achieve great design feats, yeah, that's it... and EA Lead Designer must always have a revolver and commissar hat to make sure who is boss and has no doubts in shooting whenever the creative director suggests something on the line of mancannon transports, psionic schoolgirls or guys who even remotely resemble worms :rolleyes:

[Revanchist]

Actually, for the most part, Red Alert 3's units were good, I thought. The Oni was probably the worst looking, though after the fan revolt that resulted in changing the Apocalypse, I think it looks worse.

Tiberian Twilight's units looked bad, nearly uniformily. Nod's was worse though. Worst offenders: Venom, Scorpion Tank, Stealth Tank, Avatar.

And the Mammoth tank with mirror armor is this blue, glowing monstrosity.

[Hiroma]

Koni from the RA3 is just awesome IMO
As for the Allied Defense Bureau ,I always said it looked like a untransformed Power Ranger ,I was just "WTF ROFLMAO" once I started up the beta for the first time.
(I seriously thought it was going to stand up)

[Commander_McNash]

Actually, for the most part, Red Alert 3's units were good, I thought. The Oni was probably the worst looking, though after the fan revolt that resulted in changing the Apocalypse, I think it looks worse.

Tiberian Twilight's units looked bad, nearly uniformily. Nod's was worse though. Worst offenders: Venom, Scorpion Tank, Stealth Tank, Avatar.

And the Mammoth tank with mirror armor is this blue, glowing monstrosity.

Dont forget "what a sweet suit!"

[PizzaAtomica]

Who ever was in charge for the designs in CnC4 (if there even was anyone in charge), lets just hope he isn't working for VG nowadays.

[Commander_McNash]

Who ever was in charge for the designs in CnC4 (if there even was anyone in charge), lets just hope he isn't working for VG nowadays.

Ha has probably been deported to Pixar.

[toti]

the units in c&c tw and kw are great. i love the venoms the vertigos the rocket squads the avatars and nearly all the units. may be i didnt really like the flame tanks that much and the juggernauts. c&c ra3 is just cartoonish. c&c4 is cartoonish with the worst units ever. the only thing that i like there is the um actully i dont like any of the units. the worst of them is the hammerhead. the c&c 3 hammerhead was awesome. i cant imagine what made the artists draw such a big unly thing.

[EddySaf]

Who ever was in charge for the designs in CnC4 (if there even was anyone in charge), lets just hope he isn't working for VG nowadays.

Samuel Bass worked on TW, KW, RA3, C&C4 and appears to be working for JVC at VG. He mentions WE, anyway have a listen to this as he answers a question on unit design plus some other questions.
.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L0HHP_pEmQ

[Commander_McNash]

Samuel Bass worked on TW, KW, RA3, C&C4 and appears to be working for JVC at VG. He mentions WE, anyway have a listen to this as he answers a question on unit design plus some other questions.
.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L0HHP_pEmQ

Samuel Bass is a nice guy, it's just that EA threw at him the work of turning the original C&C online directed for an asian market project into C&C4, in just a couple of months, he basically had to do what he could, and this time apparently they had even less resources and time than when they were making C&C3, so no fault on him.

[Noodlesocks]

He still gave me a wife.

[Commander_McNash]

He still gave me a wife.

I need one too in aprox 7 or 8 years, where did he find the source?

[Kyang]

I need one soon too. My ancestors would be so pissed if I'm the one that ends their family line.

+1 Source please.

[EddySaf]

He still gave me a wife.

By doing so he gave some reality as there are wives who would cry in similar real situations. But in a game that is a mistake which he and others would have already realised is a big no no.

[PizzaAtomica]

By doing so he gave some reality as there are wives who would cry in similar real situations.

No in reality those wives would be crying AT HOME, not right next to the commander on the bridge while he's trying to do his job.

[EddySaf]

No in reality those wives would be crying AT HOME, not right next to the commander on the bridge while he's trying to do his job.

I think that you lack actual experience in real situations and I have seen crying wives.

[Golan2781]

In a military command center? oO

[PizzaAtomica]

In a military command center? oO

Note to Australian military command:
Put locks on doors asap.

[EddySaf]

In a military command center? oO

I think that you are just playing games. If we are talking about reality then consider some respect for the military and their wives, and I spent a lifetime in the military.

By Samuel Bass includiing some reality into a game like that and as I mentioned.
"But in a game that is a mistake which he and others would have already realised is a big no no."

[Moongrave]

I think that you are just playing games. If we are talking about reality then consider some respect for the military and their wives, and I spent a lifetime in the military.

If it was reality, she be probably dead no wait...SHE WILL BE DEAD

[Golan2781]

I think that you are just playing games. If we are talking about reality then consider some respect for the military and their wives, and I spent a lifetime in the military.Respect would be to show it in a believable way. Military reality doesn't equal a wive crying like that in a military command center during a critical operation. Displaying it in such a laughable way is a disgrace if you ever truly lost someone and actually bother judging such a scene from this POV.

[Heron]

I think that you lack actual experience in real situations and I have seen crying wives.

Of course. But in a critical operation? I think not. Only when they found out their husbands were injured or sadly dead, I fully expect them to cry. Not during a critical operation.

[Noodlesocks]

By doing so he gave some reality as there are wives who would cry in similar real situations. But in a game that is a mistake which he and others would have already realised is a big no no.

By doing so he made me a lesbian.

[Kyang]

By doing so he made me a lesbian.


The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 6 characters.

[Heron]

Now, attempting to bring the thread back...

Which kind of unit design did you like? After all, TS and RA2 were in Voxel, so not every unit got rendered in CGI, I believe...and EALA's designs were mixed...to say the least...

I kinda like the Mastodon concept from C&C4, and I definitely dig the Titans from TS.

[stephanovich]

The ones from TD, RA and RA2 because they looked more realistic and "militarish" then the rest.

[Kyang]

I liked:

RA2:
Prism Tank, so cool.
Robot tank, adorable.

TW:
Orca, I really, really liked this one.
Venom, slick, but only from certain angles.
Juggernaut... I just like it.
Titan, I liked it better than the TS one, but I disliked the weird cockpit pod head thing they gave it.
Zone Trooper, exoskeletal armor goodness.

TT:
Kodiak, brilliant.
Venom, also adorable, and very reminiscent of the original TD Orca.
Titan, nekomimi!!! Same reservation about the cockpit pod.
Zone trooper, for the same reason as TW, but I didn't like quite how chubby they became.

RA3:
Shogun battleship
Naginata
Yuriko Omega (:p)
Giga Fortress
Mirage tank
Apocalypse
Twinblade
Apollo
MiG

Just the highlights. These were reasonable designs that were pretty realistic. (RA3 aside.) To me, all the other units were either merely acceptable, forgettable, or bad.

[Golan2781]

TD had some cool ones, aside from those based on real units, the Stealth Tank, Orca and Mammoth were kick *** for their time.
The Renovatio (http://www.moddb.com/mods/renovatio)mod pretty much nails how a realistic and tesla-punk design combination should look like. It also has a cool Orca (http://www.moddb.com/mods/renovatio/images/vtol-pre-orca#imagebox). It's how a modern RA game should look, IMO.

TS was good in creating "functional" Sci-Fi, things you'd actually accept to see on a "real" Sci-Fi battlefield (yeah, I know, impossible, but you get my meaning). The Titan, Banshee, TickTank, Orca Bomber and most structures are simply excellent in their Design.

Generals nailed it on Infantry and had excellent designs for many vehicles. The Overlord, Tomahawk, Crusader, the Technical... those are really great designs. A modern installment could with high-quality graphics could really kick ***. Some designs like the Toxin Tractor and many ZH designs look quite ridiculous though.

TW featured the cool Mammoth industrial design. Would have been cool to see it expanded upon. The Juggernaught was well done, as were the Pitbull, Orca, Firehawk, Zone Trooper, Venom and Buggy. Many mods have improved those designs heavily, though.

Many of GDI's TT designs are quite cool looking, their ingame models mostly suck though. Still, there's a lot of potential there.
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l307/GolanV/th_mastoMKII-5.jpg (http://s99.photobucket.com/albums/l307/GolanV/?action=view&current=mastoMKII-5.jpg)

[Noodlesocks]

I like the designs that don't sacrifice real world sensibilities for visual flare/readabilitiy.

For example, in C&C 3, the titan, wolverine and juggernauts were good because they really looked like walking tanks and artillery. Compared to nod's scorpion tank; while looking pretty cool, has a completely nonsensical design.

---

As for TT, I think it had a fair number of good designs that don't get the credit they deserve. I'm guessing because the bad designs were just too terrible not to be the first thing that comes to mind when thinking of the game :|

[Heron]

The ones from TD, RA and RA2 because they looked more realistic and "militarish" then the rest.

And here I was thinking you didn't like RA2 at all. :P

But looks like a common theme here is how plausible designs attract attention, at least to us more hardcore fans. Like the Mammoth Mk II, Orca, etc.

[stephanovich]

And here I was thinking you didn't like RA2 at all. :P

But looks like a common theme here is how plausible designs attract attention, at least to us more hardcore fans. Like the Mammoth Mk II, Orca, etc.

I dislike the general humorous route they took. That doesn't mean there aren't any unit designs that are great. The Apocalypse tank for instance is fantastic and with the YR voice it becomes one heck of a unit.

[Heron]

I dislike the general humorous route they took. That doesn't mean there aren't any unit designs that are great. The Apocalypse tank for instance is fantastic and with the YR voice it becomes one heck of a unit.

It would soon be a wasteland. Indeed.

I agree with your sentiment. Even if I dislike C&C4, the Mastodon stood out as something that EALA redesigned that I like.

[Kyang]

Many of GDI's TT designs are quite cool looking, their ingame models mostly suck though. Still, there's a lot of potential there.
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l307/GolanV/th_mastoMKII-5.jpg (http://s99.photobucket.com/albums/l307/GolanV/?action=view&current=mastoMKII-5.jpg)

That's very nice. I never liked the missile pods because they're pretty pointless, but other than that, it's a generic sci-fi walker done well.


On another note:
http://imgf.tw/145547180.jpg

http://imgf.tw/904582546.jpg

http://imgf.tw/942405869.jpg

Real life can be pretty silly too...

[Moongrave]

TD had some cool ones, aside from those based on real units, the Stealth Tank, Orca and Mammoth were kick *** for their time.
The Renovatio (http://www.moddb.com/mods/renovatio)mod pretty much nails how a realistic and tesla-punk design combination should look like. It also has a cool Orca (http://www.moddb.com/mods/renovatio/images/vtol-pre-orca#imagebox). It's how a modern RA game should look, IMO.

TS was good in creating "functional" Sci-Fi, things you'd actually accept to see on a "real" Sci-Fi battlefield (yeah, I know, impossible, but you get my meaning). The Titan, Banshee, TickTank, Orca Bomber and most structures are simply excellent in their Design.

Generals nailed it on Infantry and had excellent designs for many vehicles. The Overlord, Tomahawk, Crusader, the Technical... those are really great designs. A modern installment could with high-quality graphics could really kick ***. Some designs like the Toxin Tractor and many ZH designs look quite ridiculous though.

TW featured the cool Mammoth industrial design. Would have been cool to see it expanded upon. The Juggernaught was well done, as were the Pitbull, Orca, Firehawk, Zone Trooper, Venom and Buggy. Many mods have improved those designs heavily, though.

Many of GDI's TT designs are quite cool looking, their ingame models mostly suck though. Still, there's a lot of potential there.
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l307/GolanV/th_mastoMKII-5.jpg (http://s99.photobucket.com/albums/l307/GolanV/?action=view&current=mastoMKII-5.jpg)

WOW you made the Mastodon look what it should be

[m4dn3ss]

Worm man!

[HOPE1134]

Wormando!