Collapse
No announcement yet.
Conversation Detail Module
Collapse
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Game Mode Unsteady Alliance

    #1
    Subject:
    An effectively 2v1 (actually 1v1v1) game mode that doesn't allow allied victory


    Description:
    The heart of this idea is multiplayer game mode that forces players to ally early on, but does not allow allied victory, forcing them to turn on one another at some point.

    Probably the easiest way to do this would be some sort of setup where there were two regular plays and a third, "king of the hill" "boss" play either sandwiched between them or off to the side. The two regular players have to team up to take out the "boss" player, but also has to find some way to undermine their current ally to gain an advantage when the match becomes 1v1.

    To allow 4-player matches, the "boss player" could instead consist of two separate players who can have an allied victory. Here, rather than receiving special bonuses to compensate for being outnumbered, this allied pair would receive some sort of penalty to compensate for the fact that they don't have to turn on each other.

    A more difficult and potentially interesting way of implementing the "unsteady alliance" idea is to have a regular 1v1v1 3-player match were something makes it difficult or impossible for any player to defeat any other without help. One possibility would be that each player starts with a different indestructible "Warehouse" (Warehouse A going to Player 1, Warehouse B going to Player 2, etc.), but needs access to at least two warehouses to tech up. Early game, players could only access other warehouses by allying with the owner (e.g., Player 1 allies with Player 3, so both have access to Warehouses A and C). Late game, one player would capture the enemy's warehouse before turning on their ally, while the ally would depend on the high-tech units that they've already built and the fact that the other player should be weakened from the offensive.


    One aspect of all of these game-mode ideas is that players would have the ability to disguise certain units as belonging to other players. In other words, part of this idea is that the different players can pull false-flags against one another (to enable this, allies don't share vision). The boss/dogpiled player could of course do this to try to break up the enemy alliance by trying to trick one into thinking that the other has turned on him/her. Conversely, one of the allied players could use it to undermine his/her "ally" while passing it off as an attack by the third player.


    Pros:
    -Creates a new level of strategic depth (how much to commit you forces vs. letting your ally deplete his/hers, when to play along vs. stabbing your ally in the back, etc.)
    -Could be fun to try to sow mistrust between two players allied against you

    Cons
    -Requires at least 3 players and might have trouble with 4 or more
    -(2-v-boss variant) players might not ally properly, resulting in boss players winning too often. Alternatively, the 2 regular players might ally too will, keeping boss players from winning often enough

  • #2
    I like the idea. it be a fun mode. I can see it working as 2v2 too. When one of the alliance are out of the game. The alliance turn on each other.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by A51UK View Post
      I like the idea. it be a fun mode. I can see it working as 2v2 too. When one of the alliance are out of the game. The alliance turn on each other.
      Exactly. The very basic idea is to allow alliances, force them, without allowing for allied victory, you could even make this not a seperate game mode but a check box "Unsteady Alliance" avaible when hosting a game - It then could add, to the pre-existing game and map rules, some common tech or other stuff that forces temporary alliances without allowing for allied victory.

      It could work even easier - Give each player a Command HQ or something. Each corresponds with one tech tier. The more HQs people have, the higher their tech tier. You could gain this by either capturing the building or allying with it's owner. If the game would have, like previous CnC's, 4 tech tiers, then it would even correspond with the amount of max players per team.

      This could function alongside the standard building tech tier levels - You need to tech up with structures and all, but your teched up units and structures are not avaible to build without additional pylo.. additional HQs.

      Maybie call them DEFCON hubs - One corresponds to one DEFCON level. The more you possess, the higher tier units and structures you can build, with levels on a visible meter from DEFCON-1 to DEFCON-4.
      Last edited by Borreh; 07-14-2012, 03:25 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        New mode for paranoid turtles...
        This mode will be better named as Cold War...

        By very nature and inevitable end, this mode embrace suppressing cooperation in order to increase own strenght and weakening "ally" which is your potential enemy.
        If this have to work correctly you must have choice when to break alliance not just strictly give this decision on game by rules, this way you can create much thicker athmosphere in MP and also give player strategic choice when is best time to turn against your ally to have best chance to success for example in 2v2 matches to become only survivor.

        If you make this decision by game rules it becomes all too predictable, game loose much that this mode can offer, athmosfere, additional layer of strategic depth and you also inevitably create arms race between allies that both know when time for judgment day come.
        Think about it.
        Last edited by IonorRea; 07-15-2012, 08:16 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Great Idea, but should never be implimented

          I like the idea very much, however strongly agree with IonorRea,

          Gaming is about being social and implementing this without the proper analysis into the social implications would be disastrous to the longevity of the game.

          Maybe as Boreh suggests there is a check, however all players need to approve d, I'd recommend this option be for Friends list only, so it limits the social sabotage between players.

          However overall, I believe this mechanic would be very detrimental, and a game that promotes, and to some extent teaches people to back stab, betray and undermine anothers' trust is not the kind of moral decisions we want to be teaching, overtly or subconsciously.

          I would only ever agree to this implementation if the other ally being backstabbed was an AI player, but never another human player.

          I suspect there is a specific reason why I've never heard of such an idea before.

          Games should strive to highlight pro social behavior, and this mechanic is so far on the other end of the spectrum that I shutter for the players that ever have to be subjugated to this.
          Last edited by GeneralSGJist; 07-16-2012, 07:34 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            I quite liked it in SC1 (haven't played 2) and the old C&Cs, you could make alliances with other players as you saw fit but you could also break them any time it seemed convenient to you. I don't think you even need specialized 'fake' units to break enemy alliances, it's IMO much more interesting to have this work through regular game means - say for example you focus on an enemy in such a way that his flank towards his 'ally' is open and thereby lure his ally into switching targets.
            Of course, the default are fixed alliances.

            Comment


            • #7
              Backstabing ally is nothing new in RTS, even TW has mission when Nod after joining battle with GDI against Scrins turn after victory against GDI in same mission.

              I don't think that excluding this mode is neccesery good thing and I have few points why:

              Game reasons
              1, there are lone wolf players that want play MP agains more than one player and have fair chance to win, which is whitout implementing this mode impossible, as you loose abillity to have any chance to control multiple opponents from turning against you at start just by bad luck in online custom game.

              2, this mode can pump adrenaline into hights of most intense 1v1 small map games even on big maps with multiple alliances, which in classic scenario on maps like Twilight Flame in coop turn mostly into boring turtle arms race, which is inefective if your ally isn't your flank shield anymore, so active mobile defense is required and more dynamic gameplay is consequence. So this mod is also good method to somewhat prevent turtling if players wants some prevention.

              From social perspective:

              20th century is century of wars and there aren't truest words than there are no rules in love and war. Wars begans because of lies and backstabbing is direct consequence.
              If you try teach young generation (and yes they are teached by videogames as well because we create our opinions only from informations given by enviroment around us) that war is some kind of big scale by the book knight match about who is better, they can actualy think that is good way to solve problems and want support war solution in future, when they have right to choose as citizens...
              Showing war in good color was for centuries used to get support from crowd for another wars, but I really can't see any good social sense in 21 century to show war in better colors that actualy is and this mode have both very good game and social teaching potencial.
              Last edited by IonorRea; 07-16-2012, 08:50 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                That's my point, it's one thing teaching people that these ills exist in our world, it's quite another teaching them and getting them in the mind set to do it.

                War should not be treated as Normal, people should not be socialized in games to back stab once trusted allies. People should not be put in situations in which they are forced to use an manipulate others to their own ends. (if they choose to, that is the player's business)

                Although I do take the moral high ground in my stance, I do understand why this is appealing to certain types of people.

                I forgot about the ally system in SC, there is actually a game mode called Phantom in SC2 I played a while back, in which deception and trust are key factors to success:
                http://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/pla...-phantom-mode/
                Well I guess this successful counterexample encourages this to be made for the fun factor, but I’d still be concerned with any lasting effects this type of mode promotes.

                It seems this is just isn’t my cup of tea because of who I am, maybe it is good to retain both sides of the spectrum, to help people explore what they find appealing. (But I see this more as a necessary evil, then a valued game mechanic)
                Last edited by GeneralSGJist; 07-17-2012, 05:44 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  It's a game. Don't overdramatize it with moral decline and loss of values. The entire point of the game is defeating an enemy with whatever means necessary. It IS a war game, if you haven't realized.
                  Seriously, chill out, drop a gear. There's really no need for rhetorics painting supporters and players of such a mode as the next every-day-backstabber. 'certain types of people', WTF?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Betrayal which came with UT3 2.0 is the best game mode it has, if something similar works in RTS go for it.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      GeneralSGJist: it is foremost priority of Generals 2 to get player into mindset of general, threre is no other way to make good war strategy, same way like Hitman will be fail if this game not allow you to get into mindset of assassin by limiting some key features or parts of story that depicting assassin life as it is.
                      Game have potencial to teach about bad stuff, but you can hardly force player with videogame making bad stuff in real life if this player isn't mentaly ill or too young to decide by himself and limiting some stuff in early age or due mental illness is job of parrents not developers... otherwise games like GTA, Hitman etc. could never exist.

                      This game begging to add some conspiracy, treasons, and more realistic shades of grey instead of black and white used in depicting world in Generals 2 story.
                      If treasons have to be everyday bread in SP is intensional removing them from MP just unlogical and pointless.

                      So enough OT and back to work on game mechanics...
                      Last edited by IonorRea; 07-17-2012, 09:37 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        It's an awesome idea!! I think they should add this as a game mode.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Golan2781 View Post
                          It's a game. Don't overdramatize it with moral decline and loss of values. The entire point of the game is defeating an enemy with whatever means necessary. It IS a war game, if you haven't realized.
                          Seriously, chill out, drop a gear. There's really no need for rhetorics painting supporters and players of such a mode as the next every-day-backstabber. 'certain types of people', WTF?
                          I seem to recall one time you thought that video games were an important form of expression since it’s the culmination of many works of art, and art’s purpose is usually a combination of entertainment, insight, and communication, among other things.

                          Although I may have gone overboard, by ignoring the social ramifications of a mechanic by pretending its “just a game” and what it explicitly or implicitly teaches is irrelevant, undermines the very idea of Videogames as a legitimate form of art expression.

                          And as upsetting as it is, there are people who think in such terms as to think they must deceive and compete to get to the top, selfishly not caring whom they potentially hurt, (such as the “Ends justify the means” people)

                          Even if I’m wrong, and my position is invalid, we should think why we would want such a mechanic: what makes it fun?

                          why is it fun?

                          And who enjoys such things?

                          Without such introspection, you are just playing “A game” and what do you hope to get out of that?

                          @IonerRea,
                          I trust you understand my point above, people need to understand that mechanics can’t be presented in isolation, my concern is not off topic.

                          Developers and artist of all kinds try to make things with specific symbols, messages and goals in mind, if they don’t, they’re end product no longer has the potential for depth that makes a piece great.

                          And Actually, studies have shown that Violence in games does effect real world outcomes. The US. Military uses this to great effect, but all this is a peripheral issue, and is why I dislike modern warfare.

                          But back on track, If we really wanted to instill the mentality of war and the decisions Generals and the military uses in games, then we need to add consequences (in form of game mechanics) to show the loss of life and resources.

                          Is the point of a war game and by extension war just to win no matter the costs? Or does the # of casualties matter.

                          The thing each of us need to determine is if we want C&C to be more of a realistic and grim franchise which deals with real world issues in a serious manner.
                          Or
                          A silly and crazy “just for fun” franchise that doesn’t deal with real world issues, and just messes around and blows stuff up for the luls.

                          We can’t have it both ways, if C&C is to return to its former glory.
                          Last edited by GeneralSGJist; 07-18-2012, 09:00 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by GeneralSGJist View Post
                            I seem to recall one time you thought that video games were an important form of expression since it’s the culmination of many works of art, and art’s purpose is usually a combination of entertainment, insight, and communication, among other things.
                            Yes. So what? Insight also means realising that you are taking a point too far.
                            By the way, the important thing is to have this insight instilled in the players. You cannot get someone to think about the deeper ramifications of projecting his actions on real life if you never allow him to make them in the first place.

                            Originally posted by GeneralSGJist View Post
                            Although I may have gone overboard, by ignoring the social ramifications of a mechanic by pretending its “just a game” and what it explicitly or implicitly teaches is irrelevant, undermines the very idea of Videogames as a legitimate form of art expression.
                            It's irrelevant because of scope, not because "it's a game'. "it's a game" is why the scope is small, as the situation is well defined to the artificial boundaries of the game (like carjacking in GTA, joining the army in COD or launching nukes in Gen1). Again, this is a WAR GAME. If you have objections on the basis of people potentially taking lessons to heart, you should start on much more fundamental elements.

                            Originally posted by GeneralSGJist View Post
                            And as upsetting as it is, there are people who think in such terms as to think they must deceive and compete to get to the top, selfishly not caring whom they potentially hurt, (such as the “Ends justify the means” people)
                            Good god, really? Who would have thought?
                            I heard there are also people blindly adhering to existing social structures. So we should definitely remove fixed teams, it totally leaves people unprepared for the real world. Think of the children, will you?

                            Originally posted by GeneralSGJist View Post
                            Even if I’m wrong, and my position is invalid, we should think why we would want such a mechanic: what makes it fun?
                            The same as the rest of the game, what makes C&C so much fun compared to the over regulated high strategy games: dynamic game flow dictated by player actions.

                            Originally posted by GeneralSGJist View Post
                            why is it fun?
                            It adds more dynamic to the game by improving the already existing component of playing your enemy on a meta level. It is pretty much a control tool to help make 3+ FFAs less chaotic - the basic strategies are already possible.

                            Originally posted by GeneralSGJist View Post
                            And who enjoys such things?
                            People like me.

                            Originally posted by GeneralSGJist View Post
                            Without such introspection, you are just playing “A game” and what do you hope to get out of that?
                            Fun.
                            Last edited by Golan2781; 07-18-2012, 09:57 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by GeneralSGJist View Post
                              And Actually, studies have shown that Violence in games does effect real world outcomes. The US. Military uses this to great effect, but all this is a peripheral issue, and is why I dislike modern warfare.
                              Purposely showing violence in order to make people more psychically rugged to cope seeing violence in real world is used for training soldiers for centuries. You can see that even girls that play violent FPS aren't much of princess type that fall on floor after seeing blood. But you must have predisposition to like some kind of games like very violent one which can increase your tolerance to seeing violence in real world too.

                              By making this mode you don't make every player Kane's twin in real world, but allow specific group of advanced players seeking more thrill in game have fun.
                              I can assure you that this type of game mode will not be popular between occasional players that use to set 10min peace rule to better turtle his bases or people hating unexpected surprises.

                              As there will be probably T rating, no harm done.


                              There is no need for adding mechanics that will punish player for breaking alliance, making new enemy is fully suficient.
                              As its mode purpose to become only survivor, you can't punish player for breaking alliance by other means anyway, otherwise you discourage player to break alliance until is fully prepared, which end in boring arms race.

                              Breaking alliance at your will to use it for your advantage to become only survivor is everything that this game mod really need in my opinion.
                              Last edited by IonorRea; 07-18-2012, 11:17 AM.

                              Comment

                              X