Collapse
No announcement yet.
Conversation Detail Module
Collapse
  • Page of 3
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Suggestion to VG: Avoid clone wars

    #1
    Just read through the Unit Portrait thread and someone stated about Clone Wars got stuck in my minds.

    To the average RTS player, clone wars are an inevitable byproduct of any kind of unit spam, and it can make things look repetitive.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieva...#Battle_system

    In Medieval II: Total War, they introduced an system where all the units have variations cosmetically to avoid such a problem, like height, design on shields, etc.

    I will advocate this system if possible to the game. Different markings, like numbers on the tank, special paint jobs to indicate veteran status, even equipment on the infantry, like the shielding, etc.

    Another more radical approach could be how the tanks used by some factions can be varied cosmetically, like how perhaps the Allied light tanks can include a few model variants that function the same, but have different looks. This does make things more complex to code, but you do get different equipment that does the same job through the course of the war, cosmetic or otherwise, and such variety can add life to a battlefield IMO.

    EDIT: Here's a repost to the reply I gave in the factions idea in Generals 2.

    Originally posted by Heron View Post
    How's this for a compromise between the subfactions idea and the countries idea? I had this idea in my avoid clone wars thread, but it wouldn't do harm to repeat here again.

    Instead of having specific countries like China and USA, we will have a Pan-China bloc, and a Western bloc, then GLA.

    Then, for all 3 blocs, the countries play style comes in. What this does is to assign a RA1 style value adjustment to your units, such as an increase in armor, an increase in speed, an increase in attack speed, etc. This is however reflected on the unit designs and models. You have, for example, the M1 Abrams for the US, the Challenger 2 for the UK and the Leopard 2 for the Germans in MBT design. They share the same cannon, yet have different properties here and there to differentiate them enough. Use that to help with the differentiating. For infantry, like training a special force, use the relevant naming convention for them, like SEAL for the US, SAS for the British.

    Of course, there will be unique units inserted in here and there to showcase the specialties of the faction, like how US could be about Air Superiority, and has more jet options to choose from, like the F15 and the F22 can be chosen from, but it involves tradeoffs so one chooses his aircraft based on his style of play and can mix it up as well. The Germans could be all about the tanks, and how they introduce tank destroyers, stronger mobile artillery, and stuff. The British brings with it a good mix of infantry, espionage and showcases a more combined arms approach to the battle, requiring a mix of armor and infantry to win the day.

    It probably requires rendering work on the level of ZH, KW and perhaps even more, but such faction diversity means that you have the visual impact of not playing the same side even if they are of the same coalition.
    EDIT2:

    An suggestion by AGM, as he pointed out I have overlooked upgrades, and I agree with him, so any sort of customization and additional rendering cannot, and should not affect how one can visually see an upgrade, like the railguns in C&C3.
    Last edited by Heron; 03-10-2011, 05:06 PM.
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Yeah this would be cool. Generals actually randomly selected between 3 different variants of the GLA Technicals to build, so it's not unprecedented for a C&C game.

    Comment

    • #3
      IMO avoiding cosmetic clones isn't really all that high up the list when you're not talking about an infantry-centric game, like the Total War series. Something designed by machine all should look pretty similar (assuming every "light tank" is a standardized model). Depending on the cnc series you have, you're troops are pretty much going to look the same regardless, due to the presences of uniforms, helmets, and masks. Would I mind having unique numbers and logos on each vehicle/aircraft? Absolutely not, it would even bring the immersion factor up a notch or few, but I don't think it's a necessary component when you're talking about CnC's bread-n-butter tank warfare.

      Comment

      • #4
        Sure, it isn't all that necessary, but it is interesting to see how light tanks are different.

        I did just think of another idea. For specific factions, we could bring in a slightly different model customized for that faction cosmetically, but since each faction has its own benefits, the stats could be slightly modified. Like how most MBTs used by Nato forces share the same 120mm cannon, thus sharing the same damage output (you will think), but combat performance are slightly different based on the engine, shape of the treads, etc. So why not?

        Comment

        • #5
          Originally posted by Heron View Post
          Sure, it isn't all that necessary, but it is interesting to see how light tanks are different.

          I did just think of another idea. For specific factions, we could bring in a slightly different model customized for that faction cosmetically, but since each faction has its own benefits, the stats could be slightly modified. Like how most MBTs used by Nato forces share the same 120mm cannon, thus sharing the same damage output (you will think), but combat performance are slightly different based on the engine, shape of the treads, etc. So why not?
          I see where you're going with this, and I think it would work if we go off the Red Alert "countries" bonuses and nerfs that won't necessarily IMBA a sub side with a new unit, just sort of push it into the direction of a play style, and let the player do the rest.

          To sort of rebound off your idea, how about a simplistic maintenance mechanic, with specific factions specializing in maintaining existing forces versus factions that just let them depreciate then replace them. So, when you build your faction/sub-faction's mbt, it has it's own particular bonuses, but these bonuses wear off the longer the tank is in the field without maintenance (this is independent from combat damage). When not maintained, the tank goes to a baseline mediocre/vanilla level, thus reducing any advantage that particular sub-faction had. Something as simple as an area-of-effect mechanic to mix into your sieging force to make sure that your units stay in this condition would be something that shouldn't make it a chore for players to trudge through.

          Comment

          • #6
            I can honestly say that I don't care about stuff like this at all.

            Comment

            • #7
              I totally agree with you Heron, since a considerable amount of people play the game just for the graphics it would be a very positive point to get this, it would be loveable to see some variety of design, also this may open a great opportunity for further customisation of the game.

              Comment

              • #8
                Well, BFME1&2 did that random model thing quite nice with nice with the mordor orcs, it is a nice way to make the armies look more unique and alife.

                However, it would mean tons of work for the 3d artists and I think most modern armies have certain standarts for their stuff, so soldiers tend to look alike (in fact, I liked that the TW GDI rifle and missile soldiers shared their designs and really looked like they belonged to the same army, unlike their RA3 counterparts).

                But if Nod (or GLA or whatever) has some militants or rebels or armed civilians, this would centainly help to distinguish them from their more conventional enemies.

                Comment

                • #9
                  That would be neat.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Stygs View Post
                    Well, BFME1&2 did that random model thing quite nice with nice with the mordor orcs, it is a nice way to make the armies look more unique and alife.

                    However, it would mean tons of work for the 3d artists and I think most modern armies have certain standarts for their stuff, so soldiers tend to look alike (in fact, I liked that the TW GDI rifle and missile soldiers shared their designs and really looked like they belonged to the same army, unlike their RA3 counterparts).

                    But if Nod (or GLA or whatever) has some militants or rebels or armed civilians, this would centainly help to distinguish them from their more conventional enemies.
                    Most of the work will be done by texture artists and it will be on the line of just changing an "8" for a "3" and editing some colours with selection tool and "selective colour" on the TGA files, all of this can be done with photoshop by someone with middle skill in just a few minutes, if they tell you otherwise they are being lazy and VG should explain them they feel it may be a good time to search a replacement.

                    For example:

                    http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/20...sh-d32vgbc.jpg
                    Last edited by Commander_McNash; 03-09-2011, 01:01 AM.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      *cough* army painter *cough*


                      also, let us customize our unit's weapons with it

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ohither View Post
                        *cough* army painter *cough*


                        also, let us customize our unit's weapons with it
                        Or face Exterminatus, and Adrastia and Amberley are not happy today, go do the work! D:

                        PS: Is it not great to have female characters which are sexy, powerful and you can actually take seriously?

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          YAY for total war!! Good idea to put it in, made the game experience that much more interesting and added realism. But for cnc im gonna say no, realism isnt really its thing. The cnc4 system of armor was a fine addition, but no counters plz....

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Commander_McNash View Post
                            Most of the work will be done by texture artists and it will be on the line of just changing an "8" for a "3" and editing some colours with selection tool and "selective colour" on the TGA files, all of this can be done with photoshop by someone with middle skill in just a few minutes, if they tell you otherwise they are being lazy and VG should explain them they feel it may be a good time to search a replacement.

                            For example:

                            http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/20...sh-d32vgbc.jpg
                            The main issue with that is that you're essentially duplicating an entire 2 MB texture for each texture variation. Let's say you have 20 vehicles and each have only 4 variations; you added 120mb in texture variation alone (and that is excluding things like damage textures and shared normal/spec maps), which is not cool when you also have to make sure you get in 720 or 1080p FMV sequences so you can pack it 1 or 2 DVDs and have a sub-10GB installation footprint (anything above 10GB and people start complaining for a non-MMO game). A better method would be to use modelers and coders to do the variation. You place the numbers on its own decal that takes up 2 tris, you make one giant texture map with maybe 20 variations for a 2mb texture file with an alpha channel; you export that 2 tri decal 20 times, place a bone at the location, and have the code randomize it when it's built. The trade-off is, however, lower-machines with a low GPU bus and VRAM capacity with have trouble parsing all of those alpha channels.

                            Honestly, it doesn't take that much time to do if the artists plan for it in the beginning. That is the key; you plan for variations in your pipeline, so if you have open skinned infantry, have 1 or 2 shared texture sheets for things like faces and hats so you are essentially minimizing the footprint. It's hard to do that when the artists are in a dead-heat race to just finish the assets (traditional EA style), and would have to go back, split meshes and unwraps and the like.
                            Last edited by Harrrr; 03-09-2011, 03:43 AM.

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              so stop rushing the artists all the time, gee that sounds soooooooooo revolutionary

                              Comment

                              1 2 3 Next
                              X