tier 2-3 harvesting options

[ryanryana]

Subject:
add tier 3 harvesters and structures to add diversity and produce more money than basic harvesters

Description:
NOD
the nod faction could benefit from new harvesting structures, as the stealth harvester is very capable of surviving the late game, being able to avoid units like the mammoth tank and the juggernaut using stealth.
a possible structure could be a refinery that uses small drones to harvest tiberium. this structure would be placed in the middle of the field, and the building animation would be a drill coming out of the ground, then splitting into 8 segments forming a star like shape. each segment would be home to a small harvesting drone. these drones carry 1/4 as much tiberium as harvesters but they are much faster, and since their refinery is in the middle of the field, they have less distance to travel to unload. the refinery would also have a repair drone that repairs damaged drones. also, if the cultist and/or mastermind/prodigy return, the harvesting drones would be immune to mind control. this structure would be available at tier 3, ranging from 4000-5000
GDI
the gdi lack an effective harvester, the weaponry they are equipped is fairly useless in the late game, so why not fore go weaponry in favor of faster harvesting
the hydra harvester has nine harversting arms that harvest 1/3 as fast as a normal harvester, all the arms in total harvesting 3 times as fast, the hydra would benefit from a 33% larger storage capacity, but suffer from sluggish movement.an upgrade would fix this maybe bringing its speed to around 60% to 75% as fast as a regular harvester.
SCRIN
the scrin homeworld is likely covered in tiberium, so its was logical to use mobile refineries to mine the fields of green. the scrin mobile refinery looks like a shortened and widened PAC that hovers closer to the ground than its fighting counterpart, it carries 4 drones that mine fairly quickly, though not as fast as the nod drone harvesters. its main feature is allowing standard harvesters to deposit their loads there. removing the need for outposts which allows you to put more defenses into your main base, instaed of secluded expansions.
names for the nod structure and scrin mobile refinery would be appreciated
also any other ideas are welcome

Positive Effect:
adds depth to harvesting instead of sticking with the same old harvester and refinery.
reduces the need for a massive amount of arvesters and refineries in the late game

Negative Effect:
not completely balanced, yet.

Media:

th packked up nod octo refinery(still need names!) this drills out of ground the splits into a octagonal star

[Golan2781]

So what happens to the basic harvesters which are obsolete after the first three to five minutes (time you need to reach t3)? It kinda sounds like the tech steps in SupCom, where reaching a new tech level made your eco skyrocket compared to the T1 junk.

Anyways, IMO the eco should be relatively stable, independent of map design and similar for all factions. It's the one thing that any other balance element hinges on so any minor imbalance can snowball into massive advantages/disadvantages for players.

[MILINTarctrooper]

The poster has a point, although I would focus in another direction. Like a Tier 10 Ore Purifier from RA2. I don't think the idea of only 3 Tier gaming is sound too rush and tech rush frantic. Old CnC 10 Tier tech trees are more in line with the idea.

T1-Harvesters are generally lighter and faster to deploy but their HP and overall loads are smaller.
T5-Harvesters are generally more robust, but slower to deploy, but their HP and overall loads are larger.
T10-Harvesters are slow lumbering, auto havesters...extremely expensive, but they pay back their costs via the constant stream of resources [ergo MARV...like]

Number 1) Concept is okay, and even with the differences of Harvesting methods would not be so much of a problem.
Number 2) Problem arises with concentration of resources...if such a system was installed in a CnC3 or RA3 settings players would cry foul, but if a TS or RA2 concept of resource spread out across the whole map, this could be done.
Number 3) Balancing-Resource balancing Speed/HP/Load is not a big issue...its the tech tree. If you just went T1-3...that will be considered unfair. If you do a T1-5-10...on a Tech 10 Tier system that can be done.

One other consideration, Tiberium farming something that series has consistently talked about, but never implemented could effect gameplay as well.
Also, in the RA2 universe the Allies had a teleporting harvester, Soviets had a unit that could defend itself, and Yuri had the Slave miner...that was harvester and refinery in one.

With three different types of harvesters it could give a player an interesting variation of econ abilities. Light harvesters-econ rush, but vulnerable to econ harrass, Medium harvesters-econ boom, but at higher wait times between drop offs. Heavy harvesters-constant stream of resources, but depletes resources faster and can fill up your refineries and silos way too fast causing a econ back fire, meaning all the other collectors can not drop off their resources, or in the RA1 and TS universes "Wastage"...meaning credits are being lost because there is nowhere to store them, harvesters constantly are dropping off resources but they are not refined and therefore lost, because the silos and refineries are full.

So the best Econ strategy would be to use all three types of harvesters for best results...in varying configurations depending on map and resources on the map. Its not about making something "obsolete" and then replacing it. Its about using what you have in combination. Even "obsolete" tier units can give you a run for your money, because likes ants they swarm a target, Unless you have an opponent with a highly efficient clearing unit, which in many games is highly unlikely.

[ryanryana]

so you think there should be new harvesters at tier three, but theyre balanced with the tier one harvesters in the way that they all have an advantage(faster mining,defense) so its a choice thats made depending on the gameplay?
also, to golan
they arent truly obselete the nod concept can only be placed once in a field, and can only service 8 drones so there isnt a reason to build more, so for a good amount of money you will still need t1 harvesters
the gdi hydra harvester is like the heavy harvester milintarctroopertalked about its slow lumbering, very expensive, but makes up for it with a slightly larger load and a very fast mining rate, as well as thick armor.
scrin that use the mobile refineries still need theyre t1 harvesters because the drones that come with it are very slow, and produces a fairly steady stream of cash much like the slave miner or the tib spike from cnc3, however its main purpose is to serve as a mobile refinery for tier 1 harvesters.
i meant these harvesters and structures as a compliment to the t1 harvesters,NOD acts like a standard refinery but its closer to the tiberium and has faster miners, its drawback is you cant make more miners
GDI the hydra harvester os meant to serve as a heavy harvester, with a larger load and faster harvesting, its draw back is its speed
SCRIN have the mobile refinery which acts like a tib spike, and improves the efficiency of tier one harvesters by reducing the time going to a field, and coming back, also makes expansions less needed since you can just move the mobile refinery to the new field and have your harvesters folllow it, if its attacked you can retreat to your base.
its drawbacks are its cost, dont know what yet, but it should be very expensive, and, it requires tiberium for its tib spike-like ability, so captureing a tib spike wuld be better than building one of these, if all you want was the tibspike feature

[MILINTarctrooper]

so you think there should be new harvesters at tier three, but theyre balanced with the tier one harvesters in the way that they all have an advantage(faster mining,defense) so its a choice thats made depending on the gameplay?

Not so much all advantages...but advantage/disadvantage. And a larger tech tree.
Tier 1 harvesters are the basic harvesters, fast, light, cheap, but have smaller payloads. So you can spit out alot of them to get your econ moving, but they are vulnerable, and due to their speed they can fill up your refinery and silos too fast or not fast enough because of their small payloads.

Tier 5 [Old CnC 10 Tier Tech Tree] (Tier 2 in CnC3) harvesters are in the middle ground, more robust, higher costs, a bit slower, but they have some advantages in payload...larger amounts of cash. They are more resilient, but due to their speed you have to wait between payloads, but if you have enough of them they can have the same problem as the Tier 1 Harvesters too quickly filling up your refinery and silos, then you can not get credits or you waste the resources which causes all kinds of problems with your economic gameplay.

Tier 10 [Old CnC 10 Tier Tech Tree] (Tier 3 in CnC3) Harvesters are extremely well armored, extremely expensive, and extremely slow, but they are like a mobile refinery...so you don't have to wait for the payloads, but due to the speed of the unit resources come at a constant but slow rate, if you have enough of them it fill your coffers up way too fast, and then you waste resources and can't have enough credits which grinds your economy into the ground. (Or if you want it to return to the Refinery...it has an extremely huge resource payload, but its speed is extremely slow...so there are tradeoffs.)


It should be a choice depending on gameplay...One player may prefer light harvesters because it benefits his play style, while other players might go for the heavy or medium harvesters because of their play style. But, in order for this concept to go ahead...it would require a massive overhaul of the CnC brand to the 10 Tier Tech Tree that was present in old school CnC games, and the return to resources spread out across a map, and not in localized areas.

[ryanryana]

yea thats what i meant, but it would definetly be a good idea to have different harvesters available for different playstyles
also as an alternitive to losing tiberium completely, maybe for every tiberium silo or refinery you fill the value of tiberium goes down, so hoarding is ineffecient, also if you have 0 credits, its worth more so you can jumpstart your economy