Sensors that see into the fog of war

[IonorRea]

First, my idea wasn't trying to solve a specific problem, but rather create a tool that can be adapted to solve any number of problems, even ones that have not come up yet.

Your idea was already presented by different user and I already write about cons of this solution. As I understanded your solution have to solve your Unsteady alliance issue about black ops units that cannot be seen by ally...

Second, my system is certainly easier to learn because there are only 4 possibilities for a stealth unit: 1) the unit is not stealth at all; 2) the unit is not visually stealth (no camouflage, cloaking device, etc.), but does not show up on enemy sensors; 3) the unit is "visually" stealth (but not "sensor" stealth) and thus can only be found by detector units; and 4) the unit has both "visual" and "sensor" stealth, meaning it has to be visually observed by a detector. Each of these possibilities can be mentioned in a one-sentence blurb in the unit's description.

From your description you have sensor and detector, how three tier absolute stealth (undetectable by radar map-ally,undetectable by eyes, undetectable by sensor) can be easier than one value system which actually prevent making stealth units too strong like I already described in post before yours?
Multiple tier absolute stealth systems seems bringing Comanche problem described in my previous post into new highs and until you show me working settings for two factions natural counters I will be hardly persuaded it can works more easily or even sensible.

Your system needs the player to have psychic powers to learn it, because that's the only way that they can find the stealth values of their units and the vision range of enemy units - or, on the other end, how closely they have to group their units to keep enemy stealth units from sneaking through.

As my system not operate with absolute stealth and absolute detector, you can easily predict that unit with better visual range will be better stealth detector and you don't need to be Yuri's hair to expect that more expensive stealth unit will have better stealth value, also you need just standart brain to predict that ground unit will have better chance with detecting mines then air units.
And you need just one value and one stealth type for it...

For sake of easy gameplay there can be also showed unit stealth value when you point cursor for buying like you can see building times for units in RA3...


If you still don't understand major flaws of your system until now, then I recommending you to try visualization of your system on paper to better imagine consequences.

Also, sensors have a number of limitations that make other forms of scouting desirable. First, there are a number of unit-types, such as infantry or "sensor stealth" units, that can be spotted visually but do not show up on sensors. Second, my thinking was that scout units would have sensors that could only pick up buildings, not units, forcing you to scout the enemy to learn his unit composition, numbers, etc.

This can hardly make things better at least not for Generals 2, which by developers words have to keep best parts of predeccessor gameplay...

[Quadhelix]

As I understanded your solution have to solve your Unsteady alliance issue about black ops units that cannot be seen by ally...

Not really: I actually thought of this sensor idea before the "Unsteady Alliance" idea, it's just taken me longer to write up. Until you mentioned it, I hadn't even considered how the two might interact.

From your description you have sensor and detector, how three tier absolute stealth (undetectable by radar map-ally,undetectable by eyes, undetectable by sensor) can be easier than one value system which actually prevent making stealth units too strong like I already described in post before yours?

What Tiers? There are two "branches" of stealth - one focused on evading sensors, one focused on evading sight.

Multiple tier absolute stealth systems seems bringing Comanche problem described in my previous post into new highs and until you show me working settings for two factions natural counters I will be hardly persuaded it can works more easily or even sensible.

That's easy: the Comanches are either cloaked or "sensor stealth," but not both.

If the Comanches are visually stealth, then there are a number of options.

The GLA might have a dedicated anti-aircraft unit like the Gadfly (see also) with aircraft-only sensors that can detect stealth enemies. This lets the GLA see the approaching Commanches and shoot them down with the Gadflies and Quad Cannon.

Alternatively, the GLA player could mix some optic stealth-detectors into their groups Quad Cannon to spot the Comanches for their Quad Cannon.

If the Comanches are "sensor stealth," then they aren't stealth in the traditional sense and the Quad Cannon will have no trouble dropping them from the sky.

As my system not operate with absolute stealth and absolute detector, you can easily predict that unit with better visual range will be better stealth detector and you don't need to be Yuri's hair to expect that more expensive stealth unit will have better stealth value, also you need just standart brain to predict that ground unit will have better chance with detecting mines then air units.

Except that the player needs more information than that to actually use the system effectively.

And you need just one value and one stealth type for it...

Actually that's false. You have two values: stealth value and vision radius.

More then that, under your system, there are dozens of stealth types - indeed, a unit's stealth type changes based on the enemy it's facing. Against a unit with a small vision radius, a Rebel might have nearly absolute stealth while against a unit with a large vision radius, the Rebel has almost not stealth at all. In other word, if the game has a total of 20 units and 4 of them are stealth, your system produces a total of roughly 80 stealth types.

For sake of easy gameplay there can be also showed unit stealth value when you point cursor for buying like you can see building times for units in RA3...

You would also need to show every unit's vision radius in order for the stealth value to have any meaning, and if you're going that far, why not show hit points, armor statistics, weapon statistics, etc. The door to information overload is now unlocked.

[IonorRea]

What Tiers? There are two "branches" of stealth - one focused on evading sensors, one focused on evading sight.

Second, my system is certainly easier to learn because there are only 4 possibilities for a stealth unit: 1) the unit is not stealth at all; 2) the unit is not visually stealth (no camouflage, cloaking device, etc.), but does not show up on enemy sensors; 3) the unit is "visually" stealth (but not "sensor" stealth) and thus can only be found by detector units; and 4) the unit has both "visual" and "sensor" stealth, meaning it has to be visually observed by a detector. Each of these possibilities can be mentioned in a one-sentence blurb in the unit's description.

1 tier. Sensor stealth = requires at least visual sighting
2 tier. Visual stealth = requires at least sensor
3 tier. Visual + sensor stealth = detector requirement
Your system is so easy that even you don't know what you actually writing about...

That's easy: the Comanches are either cloaked or "sensor stealth," but not both. If the Comanches are visually stealth, then there are a number of options...

If this is easy then...No comment

Except that the player needs more information than that to actually use the system effectively.

Like Generals telling you that defense stealth detection range is about half of his vision while some units detect on 2/3 or full vision range...

Actually that's false. You have two values: stealth value and vision radius.

Vision range you have even if game have no stealth at all, in Generals you have absolute stealth and absolute detection range, in your solution you have absolute stealth and absolute detection range for sensor and detector even if we don't consider visual stealth...

More then that, under your system, there are dozens of stealth types - indeed, a unit's stealth type changes based on the enemy it's facing. Against a unit with a small vision radius, a Rebel might have nearly absolute stealth while against a unit with a large vision radius, the Rebel has almost not stealth at all. In other word, if the game has a total of 20 units and 4 of them are stealth, your system produces a total of roughly 80 stealth types.

It's same stupidity like if I was saying there is more than 80 speed types because there are plenty of units with different speed, sorry dude, but you really can't think about this serious.

You would also need to show every unit's vision radius in order for the stealth value to have any meaning, and if you're going that far, why not show hit points, armor statistics, weapon statistics, etc. The door to information overload is now unlocked.

Generals don't showed you stealth detection range of your stuff although in most cases is not same like vision range and people can cope with it easily. I can't imagine how they will be overhelmed.

I think that if you want understand, you must already...

[Quadhelix]

1 tier. Sensor stealth = requires at least visual sighting
2 tier. Visual stealth = requires at least sensor
3 tier. Visual + sensor stealth = detector requirement

Tier: 1. "one of a series of rows or ranks rising one behind or above another"; 2. "one of a number of galleries, as in a theater"; 3. "a layer; level; stratum"

In other words, those aren't tiers.

If this is easy then...No comment

If there is a threat of cloaked enemies, you mix in a detector. Whether that detector uses sensors to detect aircraft or has visual detection is a matter for the game designed and the player's unit composition.

How is that not easy?

Like Generals telling you that defense stealth detection range is about half of his vision while some units detect on 2/3 or full vision range...

So you're saying that my system is even easier to learn than Generals?

Vision range you have even if game have no stealth at all...

Except that there, you vision range as an abstract concept - a circle about "this size" on the map where you can see things. You idea takes the (somewhat arbitrary) number used by the game engine and makes it a necessary element.

It's same stupidity like if I was saying there is more than 80 speed types because there are plenty of units with different speed, sorry dude, but you really can't think about this serious.

The difference is that you can get an intuitive sense of how fast a unit is by giving it a move order and then seeing how fast it goes. With your idea, the only way to figure out how close a Rebel can get to a Humvee without being detected is to find a convenient enemy Humvee that isn't moving and experiment.