Aircraft - Evasive Manoeuvres

[RAF883]

Giving E.U combat aircraft Evasive Maneouvres as an upgrade.

As countermeasures/point defence lasers are already taken by the U.S.A (lets assume they'll be in the DLC) and ECM is taken by the Chinese (lets assume they're faction 3), E.U aircraft could do with their own survival system.
I propose giving them an upgrade which mean's aircraft will take evasive maneourves while under fire to reduce enemy accuracy. For example, an E.U jet fighter could pull a barrel roll to throw off enemy fire and then get a speed bonus as they come out of the maneuver. Or the E.U VTOL could jink and change altitude while taking fire.

Pros -
- Maintains faction diversity (rather than copying U.S/Chinese ideas)
- Makes the game more realistic - aircraft in reailty don't fly straight and level while under fire.
- Adds a new feature not seen before in the C&C universe.

Cons -
- In reality, maneourves only have limited effectiveness, which is why they're used in conjuction with countermeasures.
- Altitude changes might be hard to implement due to the RTS camera position.

[Quadhelix]

Giving E.U combat aircraft Evasive Maneouvres as an upgrade.

This seems like a definitive example of You Have Researched Breathing. I see nothing wrong with saying that the EU's pilots are more willing to take evasive maneuvers than US/Chinese pilots as an explanation for why EU aircraft come with this ability, but it seems a little silly to have it as a researchable upgrade. Of course, that may be more of a problem with the description than the name.

Still, consider this: EU aircraft come with an inherent ability to make evasive maneuvers. Initially, these evasive maneuvers reduce enemy gun damage by 35% and missile damage by 50%. Then, the Advanced Aeronautics upgrade (which adds things like vectored thrust, forward-swept wings, etc.) allows the aircraft to completely evade enemy missiles and reduces gun damage by 50%.


Alternatively, one idea that I had was that air superiority fighters like the Raptor, Firehawk, etc. could evade enemy missiles and would have a machine gun/autocannon to help engage other air superiority fighters.

As countermeasures/point defence lasers are already taken by the U.S.A (lets assume they'll be in the DLC) and ECM is taken by the Chinese (lets assume they're faction 3), E.U aircraft could do with their own survival system.

Cons -
- In reality, maneourves only have limited effectiveness, which is why they're used in conjuction with countermeasures.

I see no reason why all aircraft in the game shouldn't have countermeasures of some sort, if only as a visual effect during these evasive maneuvers.

Alternatively, the countermeasures could be implemented as a secondary ammo type in a similar vein to the Trophy defenses in MidEast Crisis 2. For example, each plane might have 20 "chaff+flare canisters," each of which has a 50% chance of deflecting an enemy missile.

[IonorRea]

I already proposed this idea here on forum but as you already notice there is possibility of implementing only rolling (do a barrel roll) maneuver within classic RTS camera to keep aircraft on screen and within course to not compromise his speed or ability to fire weapons. This maneuver don't require advanced stuff like trust vectoring etc. so if added then for all fixed wing fighters from start or as bonus on higher rank instead of increased hitpoints for veteran fighter units.

But there is little catch in this feature:
If you make by rule that with this feature aircrafts will have chance to evade some percentage of missiles then air conflict become luck dependent and if you just reduce damage for every hit that was somewhat evaded during maneuver then game will look little weird for more perceptive players...

If you want integrate into game something like this:

...then you need game where big maps and big conflicts are everyday bread like in Supreme Commander to work somehow.

As for EU aircraft survivability upgrades there can be employed for example active defense similar to one used in Firefox movie with Clint Eastwood or EMP weapon that disable incoming missiles on close distance every few seconds.

[Quadhelix]

I already proposed this idea here on forum but as you already notice there is possibility of implementing only rolling (do a barrel roll) maneuver within classic RTS camera to keep aircraft on screen and within course to not compromise his speed or ability to fire weapons. This maneuver don't require advanced stuff like trust vectoring etc. so if added then for all fixed wing fighters from start or as bonus on higher rank instead of increased hitpoints for veteran fighter units.

Actually, an airplane doing a barrel roll isn't flying in a straight line, but rather in a helical path, its "forward" movement would be impeded by the fact that the airplane isn't flying in a straight line. Furthermore, more advanced maneuvering equipment (e.g., vectored thrust) would help the airplane make a tighter barrel roll.

On the other hand, an aileron roll (which is often mistakenly called a "barrel roll") would not impeded speed or firing, but would also be useless at throwing off enemy fire because the airplane isn't actually doing anything to dodge.

But there is little catch in this feature:
If you make by rule that with this feature aircrafts will have chance to evade some percentage of missiles then air conflict become luck dependent and if you just reduce damage for every hit that was somewhat evaded during maneuver then game will look little weird for more perceptive players...

Not really, to both points.

On the issue of conflict becoming luck dependent, that holds true only if which 50% of missiles are evaded is random. However, it could be that when a "flare" is deployed, half of the missiles currently traveling toward the airplane switch to the flare. If an odd number of missiles is heading toward the aircraft when the flare deploys, whether "extra" missile switches to the flare depends on how many missiles the airplane has evaded with flares - if the airplane has evaded more than 50%, the missile hits, but if the airplane has evaded less than 50%, the missile misses.

On the issue of missiles doing less damage "looking weird," it would not look weird if the missile detonated near the airplane, but did not hit it. The idea is that the airplane catches part of the blast, but not all of it.

As for EU aircraft survivability upgrades there can be employed for example active defense similar to one used in Firefox movie with Clint Eastwood or EMP weapon that disable incoming missiles on close distance every few seconds.

That's an interesting idea, although it might be too similar to the U.S.'s lasers for RAF883's tastes.

[RAF883]

I wouldn't complain if some other form of active defence was used such as the EMP. It'd be great to see manoeuvres as well, whether as a default feature for all combat aircraft or as a faction specific upgrade.

[IonorRea]

Quadhelix:

I take your correction on aileron roll i was thinking purely about fighter movement only in one axis and used first term that come on my mind.

an aileron roll would not impeded speed or firing, but would also be useless at throwing off enemy fire because the airplane isn't actually doing anything to dodge

By doing this maneuver you reduce size of aircraft target visible from ground and changing position of engines and wings visible for enemy aircraft that is behind you... so you dodging even when plane axis center remain same, so your thinking is invalid in this case.

Not really, to both points.
Just for moment imagine that your fighter attacking group of stinger sites and in under 2 seconds flying in his direction 10 missiles, he make maneuver and there is 5 hits and 5 misses under 2 seconds... trust me i tried it in my mod for Generals in form of ECM pod for Mig and it doesn't look good at all. In Generals also probability doesn't work that way as you describe it (every second missile on 50% probability miss) and even if it work that way, then it will be at positive side not luck dependent, but on negative side hilariously stupid if every second missile miss just by rule even if doesn't match with animation or sense.

Second extreme is when your fighter plane making maneuvers but anyway never being able avoid missile, which look weird but better than previous choice and at least it give some sense to reduced damage that isn't luck dependent unlike chance to complete avoid missiles.
This way you can also allow reduce damage from bullets or laser by hitting less critical parts of airplane which can be properly animated to become easily understandable by player even without looking at health bar.

For sake of some visual candy, sense and new tactics availability, there can be AA missiles balanced in such way that when your fighter going at full speed and is pursued by missile from behind, you can loose this missile by making at right moment hard 90 degree turn to other direction which missile will be unable to follow. Turning of course slow your airplane and make him more vulnerable until you again accelerate on maximum speed, but anyway it can be useful micro tactics when you returning from attack and being pursued with multiple missiles that can be this way all avoided with one turn.

As this will require high speed, it will not work if your fighter plane flying too slow due high damage...
This way you can have both automatically produced maneuvers that reduce damage and add some eye candy and maneuvers that require good player micro and timing if you want avoid missiles completely at cost of temporary increased weakness against next strike if you are still in range of enemy missiles.

[Quadhelix]

an aileron roll would not impeded speed or firing, but would also be useless at throwing off enemy fire because the airplane isn't actually doing anything to dodge

By doing this maneuver you reduce size of aircraft target visible from ground and changing position of engines and wings visible for enemy aircraft that is behind you... so you dodging even when plane axis center remain same, so your thinking is invalid in this case.

I'm not too sure about this: if the airplane is behind you, then your engines remain facing it the entire time you perform an aileron roll and you still have the same profile facing them.

I suppose that, depending on how accurate the ground-based guns are, the reduced profile produced by a roll could potentially be helpful, but it would probably be completely useless against any sort of guided missile.

Not really, to both points.
Just for moment imagine that your fighter attacking group of stinger sites and in under 2 seconds flying in his direction 10 missiles, he make maneuver and there is 5 hits and 5 misses under 2 seconds... trust me i tried it in my mod for Generals in form of ECM pod for Mig and it doesn't look good at all. In Generals also probability doesn't work that way as you describe it (every second missile on 50% probability miss) and even if it work that way, then it will be at positive side not luck dependent, but on negative side hilariously stupid if every second missile miss just by rule even if doesn't match with animation or sense.

I was thinking that a 50% "probability" would work with something like flares or chaff, rather than with evasive actions. The idea is that when an airplane drops a flare, half the missiles headed toward the plane would switch targets to the flare, while the other half would still target that plane.

While probability in the original Generals did not work that way, this is an idea for Generals 2 or some other future Command & Conquer game - just compare the original Command & Conquer with Tiberian Sun or Red Alert with Red Alert 2.

For sake of some visual candy, sense and new tactics availability, there can be AA missiles balanced in such way that when your fighter going at full speed and is pursued by missile from behind, you can loose this missile by making at right moment hard 90 degree turn to other direction which missile will be unable to follow. Turning of course slow your airplane and make him more vulnerable until you again accelerate on maximum speed, but anyway it can be useful micro tactics when you returning from attack and being pursued with multiple missiles that can be this way all avoided with one turn.

As this will require high speed, it will not work if your fighter plane flying too slow due high damage...
This way you can have both automatically produced maneuvers that reduce damage and add some eye candy and maneuvers that require good player micro and timing if you want avoid missiles completely at cost of temporary increased weakness against next strike if you are still in range of enemy missiles.

That sounds like a very interesting idea - it rewards good micro by allowing players to directly initiate an evasive maneuver.

[Polla12]

I think its a good idea , but not for research , just for visuals. It would liven up the battlefield a lot. Planes flying straigth to their death is actually silly if you look at it that way while trying not to die sounds a lot more reasonable. Only as an added visual effect :P

[Golan2781]

TWA has something like this visually for the Banshee/Wraith. Looks very cool.
I think gameplay wise, it would be a nice take on the Gen1 Countermeasures. Either as a supplement, with one faction having CMs and the other evasive maneuvers, or as an upgrade, starting with evasive maneuvers only but adding CMs later.

[Aerothgow]

That sounds like a very interesting idea - it rewards good micro by allowing players to directly initiate an evasive maneuver.

100% agree with you. Some things must exist to make the difference between players and kids